[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I ran into an interesting discussion just now.... :-)


In SR6 is it intended that the only way to control a vehicle is by commanding the onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in?

That you can no longer remote control it yourself, using your own skills and attributes.

That all references that talk about "remote control" in the rigger section is actually talking about instructing the onboard autopilot and not you actually using the vehicle yourself remotely.

There are very few examples in this edition, but there is one on p. 201
It talk about a drone that is 'controlled remotely'. Which mean it will roll autosoft + sensor.

In fact, depending on your reading there is nothing in the entire rigging chapter that suggest that there is a 4th control option where you can also actually remote control it yourself without jumping in.


Only reference I still found was under the control device action.


If this is a deliberate change from previous edition then I think it would be good to clarify this (either here directly on the forum or in the upcoming supplement).
If not then I think it would be good to clarify this as well (perhaps by describing the order of override operation, if such still exists).

I have it on decently good authority that's already being addressed, Xenon

[Banshee]

I ran into an interesting discussion just now.... :-)


In SR6 is it intended that the only way to control a vehicle is by commanding the onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in?

That you can no longer remote control it yourself, using your own skills and attributes.

That all references that talk about "remote control" in the rigger section is actually talking about instructing the onboard autopilot and not you actually using the vehicle yourself remotely.

There are very few examples in this edition, but there is one on p. 201
It talk about a drone that is 'controlled remotely'. Which mean it will roll autosoft + sensor.

In fact, depending on your reading there is nothing in the entire rigging chapter that suggest that there is a 4th control option where you can also actually remote control it yourself without jumping in.


Only reference I still found was under the control device action.


If this is a deliberate change from previous edition then I think it would be good to clarify this (either here directly on the forum or in the upcoming supplement).
If not then I think it would be good to clarify this as well (perhaps by describing the order of override operation, if such still exists).

Well as most people know I wrote the matrix, but I wasn't alone and my partner wrote the rigger. We switched roles as I was lead on matrix and he was the lead on rigging. So ......

Control device is not intended for use on drones or vehicles ... because those have a pilot program that "controls" them ... that means there is a significant but subtle difference between controlling a device and remote operation of piloted vehicle

[Xenon]

Control device is not intended for use on drones or vehicles ... because those have a pilot program that "controls" them ... that means there is a significant but subtle difference between controlling a device and remote operation of piloted vehicle

Wow, today I learned something

Well, that simplifies a lot actually.
Thanks for sharing this.



But it also opens up some more questions.

"You can control vehicles remotely,"
"You can’t be both jumped into a drone and controlling it remotely."
So, "control remotely" here actually means "instructing" or "commanding" the onboard autopilot.
Not "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough :-)
(but I think perhaps that it would have been more clear if we used "command remotely" or "instruct remotely" rather than "control remotely").


"Rigging can be done in AR and VR"
"Whether you are rigging with AR or VR, you’re using the Matrix, so..."
"...you interact with your rigs through AR or VR, and you switch between the two with the Switch Interface Mode action"
Does this mean that we can now "jump in" via AR?
Or does "Rigging" means instructing the onboard autopilot.

"If you’re rigging remotely, noise penalties apply"
Does this mean that instructing the onboard autopilot remotely via AR suffer noise penalties?
(but there is no test associated with instructing a drone... or does the autopilot itself now suffer noise penalties when executing your instructions...?)


SR6 p. 44 Rigger Jump In (I)
A character with a vehicle control rig (VCR) and rigger-adapted vehicle or drone or a rigger command console (RCC) may jump in to control the vehicle or operate the RCC with a Major Action.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 197 Control Rigs and You
In order to jump into a vehicle, drone, or other supported device, a rigger must have an implanted vehicle control rig (VCR), or the appropriate technomancer complex form.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 283 Control Rig
It has a built-in sim module, allowing DNI with other devices. It also comes with a universal data connector and about a meter of retractable cable that functions like a datajack.
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its rating as a dice pool bonus on all vehicle skill tests and a bonus point of Edge.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 295 Rigger Interface
The rigger interface is what allows a rigger to jump in and actually feel as if they are the vehicle instead of a metahuman.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 182 Jump into Rigged Device
you have to have the proper access level on the device you want to jump into, you have to be in VR, the device you want to jump into has to have a rigger adaptation, and you have to have a control rig.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that mention a VR requirement.
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??



SR6 p. 200 Using a Weapon in a Vehicle
When using a weapon mounted on a vehicle, use Engineering + Logic.
So, this is not talking about "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough.
This pass is strictly talking about when jumped in (via both AR and VR?) and manual operation (but never really understood why we don't use our regular firearms + agility when manually firing a door mounted assault rifle or LMG).




SR6 p. 180 Control Device
This test assumes you are using the device directly, not commanding a device to use another (such as commanding a drone to fire its weapon).
Seem to be clear that Hackers don't use this action to instruct the onboard autopilot (Spoof Command seem to be the action that is is used for that). Fair enough. But if the intent is that we cannot actually remote control the drone to fire its weapon directly then it is confusing that this is used as reference.

SR6 p. 180 Control Device
A Control Device action versus a device currently “jumped into” by a rigger automatically fails.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that talk about actually remotely controlling a device that you can also jump into
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??

[Odsh]

I would changes vehicle stats to BARSASDF model. (Body, Agility, reaction, Strength, Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, Firewall). Example Strength is analogous to Horsepower. Body is equivalent to Mass. Acceleration is a function of Thrust to Weight ratio. Thus comparison of Body and Strength can give you a realistic acceleration with a higher value of verisimilitude.  A strength 6 body 2 (small drone) would be accelerate quickly 3:1. A strength 10 and body 10 vehicle (SUV) would accelerate gradually 1:1. I have an aerospace engineering degree to back it up.

A consistent ruleset for the physical world, Magic, Matrix and Rigging is like the unified theory of relativity and quantum mechanics. Would be so elegant, yet apparently is so complicated to attain.
In the meantime, we're stuck with this kind of hoopajoop. From which I can at least ditch two columns from what I'm reading here. But split the "Jumped into" column in two, for AR and VR respectively.

[Xenon]

In the meantime, we're stuck with this kind of hoopajoop.

Since there only seem to be 3 control methods (Instructing onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in) your Excel sheet will become simple and elegant.

But split the "Jumped into" column in two, for AR and VR respectively.

Let us not jump to conclusions here ;-)
For now you should probably assume that "jump in" is [still] VR only.

[Banshee]

Control device is not intended for use on drones or vehicles ... because those have a pilot program that "controls" them ... that means there is a significant but subtle difference between controlling a device and remote operation of piloted vehicle

Wow, today I learned something

Well, that simplifies a lot actually.
Thanks for sharing this.



But it also opens up some more questions.

"You can control vehicles remotely,"
"You can’t be both jumped into a drone and controlling it remotely."
So, "control remotely" here actually means "instructing" or "commanding" the onboard autopilot.
Not "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough :-)
(but I think perhaps that it would have been more clear if we used "command remotely" or "instruct remotely" rather than "control remotely").


"Rigging can be done in AR and VR"
"Whether you are rigging with AR or VR, you’re using the Matrix, so..."
"...you interact with your rigs through AR or VR, and you switch between the two with the Switch Interface Mode action"
Does this mean that we can now "jump in" via AR?
Or does "Rigging" means instructing the onboard autopilot.

"If you’re rigging remotely, noise penalties apply"
Does this mean that instructing the onboard autopilot remotely via AR suffer noise penalties?
(but there is no test associated with instructing a drone... or does the autopilot itself now suffer noise penalties when executing your instructions...?)


SR6 p. 44 Rigger Jump In (I)
A character with a vehicle control rig (VCR) and rigger-adapted vehicle or drone or a rigger command console (RCC) may jump in to control the vehicle or operate the RCC with a Major Action.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 197 Control Rigs and You
In order to jump into a vehicle, drone, or other supported device, a rigger must have an implanted vehicle control rig (VCR), or the appropriate technomancer complex form.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 283 Control Rig
It has a built-in sim module, allowing DNI with other devices. It also comes with a universal data connector and about a meter of retractable cable that functions like a datajack.
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its rating as a dice pool bonus on all vehicle skill tests and a bonus point of Edge.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 295 Rigger Interface
The rigger interface is what allows a rigger to jump in and actually feel as if they are the vehicle instead of a metahuman.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.

SR6 p. 182 Jump into Rigged Device
you have to have the proper access level on the device you want to jump into, you have to be in VR, the device you want to jump into has to have a rigger adaptation, and you have to have a control rig.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that mention a VR requirement.
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??



SR6 p. 200 Using a Weapon in a Vehicle
When using a weapon mounted on a vehicle, use Engineering + Logic.
So, this is not talking about "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough.
This pass is strictly talking about when jumped in (via both AR and VR?) and manual operation (but never really understood why we don't use our regular firearms + agility when manually firing a door mounted assault rifle or LMG).




SR6 p. 180 Control Device
This test assumes you are using the device directly, not commanding a device to use another (such as commanding a drone to fire its weapon).
Seem to be clear that Hackers don't use this action to instruct the onboard autopilot (Spoof Command seem to be the action that is is used for that). Fair enough. But if the intent is that we cannot actually remote control the drone to fire its weapon directly then it is confusing that this is used as reference.

SR6 p. 180 Control Device
A Control Device action versus a device currently “jumped into” by a rigger automatically fails.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that talk about actually remotely controlling a device that you can also jump into
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??

Ugh, yes ... I should say "I intended" and yes fully agree the rigging chapter is at best half baked. I will try to address as best as I can my interpretation combined with intent ...

Control device vs remote operation...
The end result without a rewrite of rigging means these are essentially the same thing even though I wanted there to be a difference, but ... even my intent leaves them very similar. Control device is for extended use of a device (while spoof command is a single action) so yes you can use it to pilot a drone or fire a drones weapons using your own attributes and skills as appropriate (Piloting + Reaction or Engineering + Logic). Remore operation by AR is handled the exact same way, but Remote Operation also allows for jumped in control (by using a control rig and going VR)... jumped in changed physical attributes to the equivalent mental ones but otherwise handles the skill test the same way.

Rigging in AR vs VR ... this is a serious oversight on our part for not clarifying and comes from the fact that it is second nature to us and assumed apparently obvious, but hey I can admit that's not the case now. So "rigging" is an ambiguous term here, but AR rigging is basically just extended use of the control device action as noted above while VR rigging is when you jump in

Using a weapon in a vehicle... this was done in an attempt to simplify things. So mounted weapons are all fired by gunnery which got lumped into Engineering, and covers both remote and manual operation. However I would also rule that a simple pentacle mount which is what you have in the door gunner example would use the weapons normal weapon skill and attribute.

[Odsh]

Thanks for the clarification Banshee.

Rigging in AR vs VR ... this is a serious oversight on our part for not clarifying and comes from the fact that it is second nature to us and assumed apparently obvious, but hey I can admit that's not the case now. So "rigging" is an ambiguous term here, but AR rigging is basically just extended use of the control device action as noted above while VR rigging is when you jump in

I assume nothing prevents you from using the Control Device action in VR too.

So we indeed have the following cases:

• Direct physical piloting or driving of a vehicle
• Control Device in AR
• Control Device in VR
• Jumping in in VR
• Giving orders to drones that act on their own

[Banshee]

Thanks for the clarification Banshee.

Rigging in AR vs VR ... this is a serious oversight on our part for not clarifying and comes from the fact that it is second nature to us and assumed apparently obvious, but hey I can admit that's not the case now. So "rigging" is an ambiguous term here, but AR rigging is basically just extended use of the control device action as noted above while VR rigging is when you jump in

I assume nothing prevents you from using the Control Device action in VR too.

So we indeed have the following cases:

• Direct physical piloting or driving of a vehicle
• Control Device in AR
• Control Device in VR
• Jumping in in VR
• Giving orders to drones that act on their own

Yeah, but there is technically no difference to control device between AR and VR except a possible different attribute used when applicable

[Odsh]

Indeed. Initiative can differ a lot though.

[MercilessMing]

So, remote operation, where the operator is not Jumped In but does use their skills and attributes, *IS* an intended mode of control in 6e, and the Control Device action *DOES* let a hacker control a drone in this manner?  Whew... okay, have to say I'm thankful even though I was arguing the "no it isn't" side of that discussion with Xenon.  I had a chat with my gaming group today after Xenon agreed that it probably was not the case, and their response was "but I can remote control a drone today".  Hard to argue with common sense.  I mean sometimes divergent tech makes things weird, but direct remote control of a robot shouldn't be one.
Anyway... looking forward to a much clearer Rigger book.  Street Wyrd has a few quality problems but I think it's a step in the right direction.