[savaze]

@sid
@LonePaladin

My parents aren't too hot on tech know how and my in-laws are even worse.  They just "turned on the email so we can send them letters to their new address instead of to the house."  Very basic computer instruction is met with glazed over eyes and answers of "I'll have the nieces do it when they come by."

I'm glad I gave up IT work back in the 90's!!!  It's Unfortunate that I still have to deal with tech support and by the time I've convinced them that I know what I'm talking about they can't help me any more and it's time to do it all over again with the next tier (there should be code words to bypass the bottom of the totem pole techs)...

Other skills I don't think should be able to default: (I understand that a zero is "The general baseline of knowledge shared by society. This is not incompetence; it is the standard level of untrained knowledge held by any Joe Average." I think there's a larger divide on unrated skills that require training than what's represented)

Diving - I've seen first-hand whats happens to someone without training attempt SCUBA and have to be pulled out, it's counter intuitive - high elevation diving kills the untrained period (anything over 3 meters can cause hearing loss and it just gets worse the higher you go).
Navigation - I've got a bit of experience with maps and someone who doesn't have training will get lost unless they're sporting GPS with a programmable map.
Survival - Boy scout? survival enthusiast?
Tracking - Nature enthusiast?
Armorer - All other repair skills aren't defaultable...
Demolitions - Um really?  I guess if they had a 2070 version of The Anarchist Handbook, that really worked, and wanted to face their mortality.
Locksmith - If defaulting involves using big tools sure, but aren't you suppose to get through it without destroying it?  I don't think that involves locksmithing anymore.
Parachuting - Maybe if their AR had a program that showed where and when to pull what under normal conditions (recreational jump) - anyone could do a static line jump, but landing...
First Aid - If it's more than band-aids and ointment I think you're just doing more harm.

I guess you could attempt any skill, but plan on a FUBAR situation.

[Frostriese]

I agree with you on Locksmith, Armorer and Demolitions, but the rest seems just fine to me. After all, defaultable doesn't mean one is guaranteed to succeed in it. Untrained people can survive in the wilds for some days if they really, really have luck (i.e. if the dice roll the right way ), but the chances aren't all that good, of course. And that is exactly what defaulting represents. Same with the other skills. First Aid is a borderline case - it does need schooling, but as with driving it is simply assumed everybody has it. Otherwise driving shouldn't be defaultable, either (hell, I don't have a driving license for example. People like me exist IRL ).

[Chaemera]

Remember, 1 hit doesn't always mean success. The point of a default skill isn't that a person without professional training can succeed at a given task. It's that they can try. If you can't default on a skill, you can't even try to do it.

To use some of the skills mentioned as examples:
 
I don't know anything about SCUBA, but I could try. And fail, and hope someone like savaze is around to pull my idiot ass out of the water before I croak. If I can't default, I can't even physically enter the water wearing SCUBA gear, by definition.

Same for demolitions, if I default on it, I'm trying (without really knowing what I'm doing) to set up an explosive. If I don't have AR assistance (+1 to +3 bonus, depending on the GM and the level of assistance), perhaps some help over my commlink from the team demo specialist (teamwork bonus, +his hits to my roll), I'm looking at a ridiculously small DP (Logic -1). I'm more likely to critically glitch than to get the hits necessary to successfully stage my explosive.

If I'm not a mage with training in spellcasting, on the other hand, it doesn't matter how much I flail my arms and chant ominously. No spell will be forthcoming. And that's what it means to not be able to default. You cannot try to do it.

[savaze]

I'll relent on Navigation, Survival, Tracking, Parachuting, and First Aid.  Those are skills you could potentially blunder your way through. 

As a semi related note... I knew an extreme sports enthusiast who studied everything he could find about sky diving, even the lingo.  He managed to convince a jump school to let him go up.  He told them he had forgotten his license and he sounded like he knew what he was talking about, so they let him go up.  When they thought to card check him he already had over a 100 jumps under his belt, which was a lot more than anyone else at the school... So they offered him a job and actually got him licensed before the FAA got involved.

The other skills I just think there is too much of a technical component and there's not enough cultural immersion to where people are exposed enough to it to default like they would with computer skills, referring to 2070.

@Chaemera
In my current state the best I could do is verbal instruction on swimming, aviation, or weapons related things.  If I was in the water I would hope that my medicine related weight would help me float until someone could pull me out.  I need help getting to and from Dr's appointments now so you'd be screwed if you were in a situation where you needed saving.

If I'm not a mage with training in spellcasting, on the other hand, it doesn't matter how much I flail my arms and chant ominously. No spell will be forthcoming. And that's what it means to not be able to default. You cannot try to do it.

Is that what those costume toting guys that are wandering alleys around hobbie shops doing... practicing their sorcery skills?! Oh you mean in SR...

[Sid]

Is that what those costume toting guys that are wandering alleys around hobbie shops doing... practicing their sorcery skills?! Oh you mean in SR...

Hare Krishnas? Devotees of The Fun Church?

Consider how defaulting on computers would work in different eras.

Consider how being faced with an unknown variable works in a stressful situation. 
Renaissance (the movie) is another example. (though if you haven't seen it and want to, you might not want to read this) There's a scene with a woman accessing a retinal scanner for a secure area, when two employees start walking towards her down the corridor and she starts panicking quietly. The scanner takes a good 20 seconds, half of which is because she breaks eye contact with the device to look at them, and she almost freaks out when go past and it still hasn't opened yet.
It's a biometric reader for SR, but I'd put it under basic computer use for having a ballpark figure on read times and knowing not to break contact halfway through retinal scanning.

I'm just wondering if people felt that there were mandatory skills every player needed...

Returning to this divorced from actual skill names, this is what I'd expect a shadowrunner to be mostly capable of doing under normal or emergency circumstances. (even if not necessarily good at all of it)
Shooting whatever ranged weapon you have, knowing when / how to make yourself a harder target, not being entirely useless without a gun, ability to spot odd details / ambushes / other situations, not flustered when a computer provides a message or situation you've never had explained to you in layman's terms, able to drive Miss Daisy, a modicum of stealth and some basic etiquette are what I'd choose - not necessarily in that order.

[LonePaladin]

The top of my Mandatory List is Perception. It's quite likely the most-used skill in the entire game, and no one is ever 100% exempt from having to roll it. Most of the other skills require some sort of conscious effort to use, but Perception is one of those that takes its own initiative. No runner should go without it, even if they only have 1 rank. Any player who neglects it at creation will likely find that it's the very first thing they buy with Karma, as long as they've managed to survive to that point.

Regarding Dodge: If you've made your character tougher than shoe leather (high Body stat, High Pain Tolerance, tricked-out armor, and more), you can probably get away with leaving Dodge alone for a while. If you've rigged yourself so that you can ignore most small-arms fire -- barring lucky shots, of course -- then you've probably also geared yourself to dish out lots of punishment in return.

Even in this case, Dodge falls into the "can't hurt to tap into" category, for those times someone levels a rocket launcher or assault cannon your way.

[Deliverator]

@sid
@LonePaladin

My parents aren't too hot on tech know how and my in-laws are even worse.  They just "turned on the email so we can send them letters to their new address instead of to the house."  Very basic computer instruction is met with glazed over eyes and answers of "I'll have the nieces do it when they come by."

I'm glad I gave up IT work back in the 90's!!!  It's Unfortunate that I still have to deal with tech support and by the time I've convinced them that I know what I'm talking about they can't help me any more and it's time to do it all over again with the next tier (there should be code words to bypass the bottom of the totem pole techs)...

Other skills I don't think should be able to default: (I understand that a zero is "The general baseline of knowledge shared by society. This is not incompetence; it is the standard level of untrained knowledge held by any Joe Average." I think there's a larger divide on unrated skills that require training than what's represented)

Diving - I've seen first-hand whats happens to someone without training attempt SCUBA and have to be pulled out, it's counter intuitive - high elevation diving kills the untrained period (anything over 3 meters can cause hearing loss and it just gets worse the higher you go).
Navigation - I've got a bit of experience with maps and someone who doesn't have training will get lost unless they're sporting GPS with a programmable map.
Survival - Boy scout? survival enthusiast?
Tracking - Nature enthusiast?
Armorer - All other repair skills aren't defaultable...
Demolitions - Um really?  I guess if they had a 2070 version of The Anarchist Handbook, that really worked, and wanted to face their mortality.
Locksmith - If defaulting involves using big tools sure, but aren't you suppose to get through it without destroying it?  I don't think that involves locksmithing anymore.
Parachuting - Maybe if their AR had a program that showed where and when to pull what under normal conditions (recreational jump) - anyone could do a static line jump, but landing...
First Aid - If it's more than band-aids and ointment I think you're just doing more harm.

I guess you could attempt any skill, but plan on a FUBAR situation.

Have you never seen a movie? Just because you can USE explosives doesn't mean you know how to make them or where to put them to get the most effect. If you have a pack full of c4 with radio devices and instructions on how to use them all you need to do is take the little silver thing attached to the wire and shove it into the plastic explosives and stick it or set it where you want it and then push the red button on the transmitter and BOOM. Now you wouldn't be able to take down a sky scraper with 4 well placed explosive devices without very specific instructions and some target specific training from your local explosives expert.

Diving, well thats pretty simple. Jump in the water using your body to direct yourself headlong into the water. Yeah you won't do high dives and scuba would be difficult without some training, but I'm pretty sure anyone here could breathe off a regulator in a non-emergency situation.

Navigation, are you telling me you can't read a road map? How about using landmarks to keep heading in the right direction?

Survival, seek water and food. You might get unlucky and find dirty water and poisonous food but at least you found it!

Tracking... you ever seen foot prints in snow? Thats basic tracking. Just from the distance between prints you can determine if they are tall or short, and how deep they are you can tell if they are laden or traveling light. If they are far apart AND heavy they are probably running.

Armorer, now thats something I don't see how the average person would know unless most people in SR universe are familiar with firearms.

Locksmithing, never tried unlocking a door with a paper clip and a hair pin? How about a coat hanger to unlock your car door? Ever replaced a door lock? Those are all locksmithing.

Parachuting, jump out, pull before you hit the ground, and probably sprain your ankle or hurt yourself in some other way when you land.

First aid, if its bleeding add pressure. First aid isn't combat medicine. First aid is the stuff you learn in health class. Splints, immobilize, bandage, get their ass to the hospital. If they are in bad condition that will require more training, things like pneumothorax or arterial bleeding you are going to be in trouble without training.

[Mara]

The big 3 in my games(the skills you live or die by)
Dodge, Etiquette, and Perception

I also expect everyone to have at least one combat skill, whether that be blades,
pistols, or Exotic Weapon: Tasers, I don't care. However, without an offensive skill,
you will likely be geeked.

First Aid, while not required, is definately recommended. Same goes for the Athletics Group.

[farothel]

I always take the following (not in any particular order), even if only at 1:
-perception
-etiquette
-first aid
-one weapon skill (depends on character build)
-negotiation (if the face isn't present, someone has to take over)
-computer
-pilot ground vehicle

As for defaulting, even if you could it would often be very difficult.  You only get your attribute with a -1 penalty.  And since you're not used to this, you probably don't have the right tools for it, figure another -1 to -3.  A couple of other modifiers and you're left with no dice to roll, unless you spend edge.

As for diving, it's not that difficult (I do it IRL) as long as you are careful.  And in 2070 the diving computers are probably a lot better at guiding you through the process (just like medkits for first aid).  There exists however a lot of water in 2070 you wouldn't want to go near with a diving suit (or any other suit for that matter).

[savaze]

If it's so simple that it wouldn't require a skill check then it doesn't count as having to default... 

[Serephim]

The word "Mandatory" is probably what bothered me the most, as it depends very much on the type of character you are building.  As a GM, as long as someone can justify a character being the way that they are with a decent back story, I will let them do almost anything.  There are skills that an average person would have, and skills that are not trained that one could default to.  My character has never taken lessons and studied gun use, however she could use a gun by defaulting.  I had never used a gun before the first time I shot a gun, and while I will say that I was not comfortable with it at first, I hit the target. 

Is etiquette necessary?   A character without etiquette, because they were raised in the wilderness with their old grandparent, will be an interesting addition.  It's good if most people have it, but that is something a character can learn in the game and gives a GM something interesting and different to work with and around.  It can be fun to play a character who is so streamlined in their profession that they are useless at everything else. A rigger who identifies with his machines more than people, he would only shadowrun to earn money for maintenance of his babies. He might not ever work towards talking to people, as the character has no interest in it.

There are definitely skills that are useful to almost all character types and that you would notice were missing, that does not make them mandatory.  Mandatory means that without these skills you could not play the character and I disagree with that.  It might annoy all of your co-players, and your GM, but it is a role playing decision and if it fits the character, I would allow it.

[Sid]

Serephim, I'd assume the use of 'mandatory' implies the exclusion of outlier character types that would be based specifically on not having a generally useful skill or knowledge set.

while I will say that I was not comfortable with it at first, I hit the target.

This doesn't say much for your ability to perform at peak condition under pressure. How much would you want you on a team?
Second assumption would be that the skills should be those that will get you killed or put at a strong disadvantage when below professional / entry-level shadowrunner capacity.

[Serephim]

Serephim, I'd assume the use of 'mandatory' implies the exclusion of outlier character types that would be based specifically on not having a generally useful skill or knowledge set.

while I will say that I was not comfortable with it at first, I hit the target.

This doesn't say much for your ability to perform at peak condition under pressure. How much would you want you on a team?
Second assumption would be that the skills should be those that will get you killed or put at a strong disadvantage when below professional / entry-level shadowrunner capacity.

While I fully agree with your first statement, and should have assumed as much before replying to the thread.  I do not fully understand the second one, which may just be the way it is phrased. 

I do say and stand by that you can be a useful team member in a primarily support role, and you can do that without combat bonuses.  My phrasing must have been off as well as my referenced character has never fired a gun, and when I used the quote you have linked above I was actually referring to my person. 

If I were a shadowrunner, I do not know that I would want myself on my team; however, if I where a decker, rigger, or awakened, these would all change my opinion on myself's usefulness as a team member.  I think it depends highly on the type of campaign being run and the focus on combat or alternatively other skills sets.  It will also depend on the other characters in the campaign and what is needed to round out a party.

I think I understand the point you are making and I am not looking for an argument or a fight.  I wished to clarify my position and apologize for misunderstanding the use of mandatory in this instance. 

[savaze]

I always made sure my players skills fit their backgrounds and if they couldn't make it cohesive then I'd tell them to keep pondering until a back story that did emerged (unless they played a pregenerated character).  Usually everyone had a social skill and a fighting skill, but it didn't always have to happen that way if they fleshed out their characters a certain way.

[KarmaInferno]

I personally have no issues with folks trying to default on anything, assuming they are CAPABLE of performing the skill. (mundanes can't spellcast no matter how hard they try, for example)

At a minimum, it's hilarious when the guy throwing two dice on a defaulting test critically glitches. On the other hand, it's possibly to get stupidly lucky as well, and the same guy with no training might succeed by pure accident.

I mean, seriously, how many time have we seen the totally untrained guy attempting to defuse bombs in media?



-k