[Xenon]

only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.

I am talking about this post (emphasis mine)

You could arguably introduce dual barriers too, at this point, for the paranoid mage. Or let them stack two barriers on top of each other.

This would be the circle of protection ritual that we have in later editions.

SR6 CRB pg 162, Mana Barrier Table:

MANA BARRIER

ASTRAL OR PHYSICAL

REFERENCE

Circle of Protection ritual	Both	p. 144
Magical lodge	Both	p. 129
Mana Barrier spell	Either	p. 141
Ward ritual	Both	p. 145

All other methods of creating a Mana Barrier are Dual Natured, except for the spell Mana Barrier, unless you interpret Either as giving the option to choose both as an option, but that would be an extremely liberal reading of the table.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So long as they have Astral Forms, yes they are.  There's no allowance given for barriers to check whether an astral form is "targeting" something on the physical plane.  So therefore it can't be allowing astral forms targeting a physical plane construct to pass through unimpeded.

You are assuming that a mana spell will gain an astral form and "travel" from your location to the target location?

In astral space?  Yes.

But if spells acted like that then they would also hit anything in the astral plane along the way (like spirits and projecting magicians etc).

No, because unless you're using astral perception, the spell can't AFFECT anything in astral space.  Astral Forms just go right through each other anyway, so even if you were being engulfed by a spirit, when you throw a manabolt at someone who's not also being engulfed by that same spirit... when the manabolt's astral form passes through the spirit's aura it has no interaction because the spirit isn't the target.  It's "incidental contact" of astral forms.

And if there was an astral mana barrier in the way it would slam into that as well. Causing astral intersection (rather than messing with the magicians spellcasting test).

Exactly.

I am assuming that you need to establish line of sight. Then you cast the spell and the mana will manifest directly at the target location. But if there is a mana barrier in the way (on the plane you are currently on) then it is much harder having the mana manifesting at the target. The spell might fizzle or if doesn't it will at probably at least be weaker than intended.

Well, I've already fallen into the trap of using prior edition metaphysics, but in my self-serving defense it's because the astral metaphysics of this edition are almost completely undefined.  All I can say is "well in PRIOR editions, the spell leapt through astral space from you to the target".

There is no risk of astral intersection here. There is no risk of the barrier collapsing. It act more like spell defense than anything else...

Meh.  It's impossible to say with certainty in this edition.

[markelphoenix]

only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.

I am talking about this post (emphasis mine)

You could arguably introduce dual barriers too, at this point, for the paranoid mage. Or let them stack two barriers on top of each other.

This would be the circle of protection ritual that we have in later editions.

SR6 CRB pg 162, Mana Barrier Table:

MANA BARRIER

ASTRAL OR PHYSICAL

REFERENCE

Circle of Protection ritual	Both	p. 144
Magical lodge	Both	p. 129
Mana Barrier spell	Either	p. 141
Ward ritual	Both	p. 145

All other methods of creating a Mana Barrier are Dual Natured, except for the spell Mana Barrier, unless you interpret Either as giving the option to choose both as an option, but that would be an extremely liberal reading of the table.

What I am getting at is that it seems pretty clear that both = Dual Natured
Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both planes simultaneously, and they act like mana bar-riers on both planes at once.

[markelphoenix]

So long as they have Astral Forms, yes they are.  There's no allowance given for barriers to check whether an astral form is "targeting" something on the physical plane.  So therefore it can't be allowing astral forms targeting a physical plane construct to pass through unimpeded.

You are assuming that a mana spell will gain an astral form and "travel" from your location to the target location?

In astral space?  Yes.

But if spells acted like that then they would also hit anything in the astral plane along the way (like spirits and projecting magicians etc).

No, because unless you're using astral perception, the spell can't AFFECT anything in astral space.  Astral Forms just go right through each other anyway, so even if you were being engulfed by a spirit, when you throw a manabolt at someone who's not also being engulfed by that same spirit... when the manabolt's astral form passes through the spirit's aura it has no interaction because the spirit isn't the target.  It's "incidental contact" of astral forms.

And if there was an astral mana barrier in the way it would slam into that as well. Causing astral intersection (rather than messing with the magicians spellcasting test).

Exactly.

I am assuming that you need to establish line of sight. Then you cast the spell and the mana will manifest directly at the target location. But if there is a mana barrier in the way (on the plane you are currently on) then it is much harder having the mana manifesting at the target. The spell might fizzle or if doesn't it will at probably at least be weaker than intended.

Well, I've already fallen into the trap of using prior edition metaphysics, but in my self-serving defense it's because the astral metaphysics of this edition are almost completely undefined.  All I can say is "well in PRIOR editions, the spell leapt through astral space from you to the target".

There is no risk of astral intersection here. There is no risk of the barrier collapsing. It act more like spell defense than anything else...

Meh.  It's impossible to say with certainty in this edition.

Any-body trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the rating of the barrier, which is added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcast-ing test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of the barrier x 2).
 

That seems pretty definitive, no intersection

[markelphoenix]

This desperately needs Errata, because the Mana Barrier spell implies it blocks spells, but then references more info on Mana Barriers where it explicitly states it simply applies a Defense Pool bonus to defender or makes an Opposed Barrier Rating x 2 test, if no defending target.

[Xenon]

This desperately needs Errata, because the Mana Barrier spell implies it blocks spells, but then references more info on Mana Barriers where it explicitly states it simply applies a Defense Pool bonus to defender or makes an Opposed Barrier Rating x 2 test, if no defending target.

If you unknowingly cross the barrier with activated foci, alchemical preparations, reagents and/or [sustained/quickend] spells their astral form will slam into the barrier.

If you cast a spell at a target on the other side, the barrier will instead add to the opposed dice pool (similar to how counterspelling would be resolved).

[Xenon]

From SR5:

• Mana Barrier creates an invisible barrier of magical energy.
• It has a barrier rating equal to the net hits scored and follows the rules for mana barriers (p. 315).
• This barrier does not restrict living beings or physical objects,
• but it impedes spirits, foci, dual beings
• and spells on the plane in which you cast it (physical or astral).
• If cast on the astral plane, it also impedes astral forms and reduces visibility.

Assume a barrier that is cast on the physical plane in 5th edition:

1 = you can't see the barrier on the physical plane. you can sense it's magic with astral perception (but it does not seem to reduce visibility for an astral observer - see last point)

2= if you are aware of it (perhaps you are using astral perception) then you can break it down or push through it. if you push through it you can bring a "number of friends, spirits, active foci, sustained spells, or other astral forms with you, one for each net hit you score".

3 = non magical, living and mundane objects can pass through without issues

4 = if a dual natured object (a carried activated focus, physical preparation, reagents etc) or dual natured being (magician using perception, vampires, ghouls etc) unknowingly cross the barrier then astral intersection happens (but it does not seem to prevent wholly astral entities - see last point)

5 = it will not affect spells cast on the astral plane (it is not harder to cast a spell through it on the astral plane and a sustained spell cast in the astral on a projecting magician will not be stopped... but it does seem to stop a sustained spell if it is cast on a physical target in the physical plane)

6 = it will not reduce visibility for an astral observer and it will not impede purely astral forms (like a projecting magician that bring a purley astral activated focus with them).



Assume a barrier that is cast on the astral plane in 5th edition:

1 = you still can't see the barrier on the physical plane. you can sense it's magic with astral perception (but not only  that, if you use astral perception it will also reduce visibility - see last point)

2 = you can still break it down or push through it.

3 = non magical, living and mundane objects can still pass through without issues

4 = if a dual natured object (a carried activated focus, physical preparation etc) or dual natured being (magician using perception, spirit using materialization, vampires, ghouls etc) unknowingly cross the barrier then astral intersection still happens

5 = it will not affect spells cast on the physical plane (it is not harder to cast a spell through it on the physical plane)

6 = it will now reduce visibility for an astral observer and it will will also, in addition to dual natured beings and objects, also prevent purely astral forms (like projecting magicians and sustained spells) from passing through.




TL;DR

Pros of casting a mana barrier on the physical plane in 5th edition:

• The advantage of this is that it makes it harder to cast spells through it on the physical plane

Pros of casting a mana barrier on the astral plane:

• It make it harder to cast spells through it (but only) on the astral plane
• It impose visual modifiers for an astral observer
• It also stop wholly astral entities

[Xenon]

From SR6

• This invisible wall (visible only on the astral)
• will let people and non-magical objects through with no noticeable effect
• but spirits, foci, dual-natured beings, alchemical preparations, reagents, and spells can’t get through
• Astrally projecting mages can’t get through, either
• For more information on mana barriers, see p. 161.

Unlike the 5th edition there is actually nothing here that make any explicit difference between if you cast it on the astral plane or the physical plane. if you just read this in isolation it seem as if mana barrier spells now are active on both planes (just like a regular ward ritual).

But later (on p. 161-162) you have 99% of the text from SR5 that still DO talk about differences between physical and astral (for example mana barriers on the astral explicitly stop astral movement which mean that a mana barrier on the physical plane still doesn't)

I can think of two reasons for this.

• The intent was that the difference between casting a mana barrier on the physical plane and the astral plane should be removed, that mana barrier spell are also acting on both planes at the same time just like a regular ward ritual.
• They considered many of the specific rules under the mana barrier spell redundant and thought it was better to just present them at one location, at p. 161-162

What talk against 1) is that with this reading you get into conflicting rules on p. 161 (which are 99% copy pasta from SR5 and DO talk about explicit differences between a mana barrier on the physical and astral plane), and also the table on p. 162 (that still talk about "both" or "either" the physical / astral plane).

What talk against 2) is that mana barrier spell talk about stopping projecting magicians when in fact you would need to cast the spell on the astral plane for that. Then again, since there is actually nothing in the text that contradict the later text on p. 161-162 this is probably still the most plausible option of the two.


So what tidbits of information got actually changed from SR5 p. 315 compared to SR6 p. 161??
Not much it seems.

SR5 p. 315	SR6 p. 161
Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, spirits, and active foci.	Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-natured entities, spirits, and active foci.
Anybody trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the Force of the barrier, which is added to the Defense or the Resistance dice pool. If the spell doesn’t normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting test becomes an Opposed Test against the Force of the barrier.	Anybody trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the rating of the barrier, which is added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of the barrier x 2).
Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s Force.	Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s Force[Sic].
Astral mana barriers are resistant to astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the same manner as physical mana barriers.	Astral mana barriers are resistant to astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the same manner as physical mana barriers.

TL;DR

Pros of casting a mana barrier on the physical plane in 6th edition:

• While perhaps even less clear than before it seem as if the advantage is [still] that it make it harder to cast spells through it on the physical plane

Pros of casting a mana barrier on the astral plane:

• It [still] make it harder to cast spells through it (but only) on the astral plane
• It [still[ impose visual modifiers for an astral observer
• It also [still] stop wholly astral entities

[Sir Ludwig]

I know this is going to come up in the next game, so want to ask since its on the same topic.
Mana Barrier (Spell) is a wall that the caster can determine the shape.

The base spell is 2m x 2m working surface. 
The Increase Area effect can be added to add up to two meters in length and width (but not depth) for each time the effect is chosen. 

So if the caster:
Increases the area 1 time.  The working surface is 4m x 4m (16 sq. meters)  DV +1
Increases the area 2 time.  The working surface is 6m x 6m (36 sq. meters)  DV +2

If I wanted to create a mana barrier around an adult 6’ tall human, it would be 1mx1mx2m or 20sq meters (approx).
In my mind and rough math, the 4mx4m (16sq. meters) could create a box on a child or small adult (Dwarf).  But it would take two increases which would get you 36sq meter…which could also cover a large troll as well.

Is my math/logic correct?
Thanks
SL

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think your math on how much to encase a human is off but otherwise it seems right by the spell. I'd say 10sq meters to encapsulate a human. Think of it as panels. a 2 meter by 1 meter wall on a side, that's 2 sq meters, you have 4 sides, 4x2=8.  The top and bottom panels 1 meter by 1 meter, so 1sq meter. 8+1+1=10. You couldn't move at all but it would encase you. You could almost do it without a size increase, if you crouched you could.  The 1st size increase would be enough to allow you a bit of movement. You'd need at least two bumps to cover a group.

A lot of geometry mid game to work this shit out.

[Sir Ludwig]

Shinobi,

Your are correct, when I did my math I double it, should be 10 sq. meter.

Thanks
SL

[markelphoenix]

States you can shape how you like, so you could make it a dome or sphere if you like

[markelphoenix]

Speaking of shaping a Mana Barrier...default example is 2x2 Meter Wall. If you can cast it as any shape the caster desires, does that translate to a 2 diameter sphere?

[Xenon]

Speaking of shaping a Mana Barrier...default example is 2x2 Meter Wall. If you can cast it as any shape the caster desires, does that translate to a 2 diameter sphere?

No.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm sure that I don't know enough geometry to say with mathematical certainty... but I'm pretty sure that the area of a 2x2 meter plane is less than the area of a 2 meter diameter sphere. Nor do I have the mathematical prowess to say what diameter sphere WOULD have the same area as a 2x2 meter plane.

However.

If you can shape the wall, then it stands to reason you can shape it into a ball. And rather than doing math, I'd certainly be amenable to just fudging the geometry for the sake of expediency and let a 2 meter diameter sphere be a viable option. Magic defies mundane sciences like geometry.  I can bridge that gap with suspension of disbelief.