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6E: Damaging materialized spirits with normal weapons..

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taukarrie

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« on: <10-18-19/1214:33> »
" Additionally, they gain Immunity to Normal Weapons while materialized. "
- pg 225 6e CRB

"Spirits can be fought with anything that affects astral beings, or with regular weapons if they materialize"
- pg 147 6e CRB

So.. which one is correct?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <10-18-19/1227:24> »
They're both correct.

The rules for Immunity to Normal Weapons is given on pg. 225.  Note that it's not technical immunity- but at high enough rating it can be effective immunity.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <10-18-19/1336:15> »
Also note that Immunity is currently overpowered, because it wasn't scaled down when everything else was. I strongly suggest halving the autohits from it, pending errata.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <10-18-19/1511:22> »
Well it WAS reduced.. Spirits had Fx2 Hardened Armor in 5e vs non-magic.  It's "only" Force, now.

But yes, that's still too much.  Probably needs House Rules, or a gentleman's agreement that noone brings any spirits out bigger than Force 4 or so.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #4 on: <10-18-19/1711:14> »
ITNW should just be a static value so it's effective at low and high force without turning high force spirits into game killers.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: <10-18-19/1850:00> »
Well it WAS reduced.. Spirits had Fx2 Hardened Armor in 5e vs non-magic.  It's "only" Force, now.
But they still had at most F autohits in SR5 (barring flechette/fragmentation), since they had modified rating / 2 autohits. So no, their autohits only received a boost in SR6 (because AP is gone), there was no reduction in autohits from SR5 to SR6.

To math it out: A Force 6 Spirit with 5 Body vs AP -6 (Ares Alpha + APDS) had 5 + (6*2 - 6) = 11 soak dice and (6*2 - 6)/2 = 3 autohits in SR5, for average ~6.7 soak. That same Spirit has 5 soak and 6 autohits in SR6, for average 7.7 soak.

Even if we ignore competent weapons and optimised ammo choices, against 0 AP it was 11.7 soak, which is 4 more than in SR6 due to the changes in Armor, but the damage number drops are higher than that drop of 4 (5 for Ares Predator, 9 + significant AP for the Barrett). So even against 0-AP attacks in SR5, the Spirit will fare better in SR6. Against heavy-armor-piercing attacks in SR5, there is no solid equivalent in SR6 so they've only received a massive boost if Immunity isn't properly errataed to be more balanced with the new damage game.

A static value might work, though then even a F1 Spirit is hard to kill for a lot of enemies. Maybe there should be a cap on how much of their power manifests in the form of ITNW.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #6 on: <10-18-19/1929:30> »
While it is force for force far better now in 5e I’ve see many force 12 spirits before we put down a house rule that any spirit above your magic in force used edge. A force 12 spirit in 6e wood be pretty unlikely without some serious luck and min maxing.


Not saying it’s not a problem. It is.  It I don’t think it’s any worse than 5e. Multiple spirits without binding I fin Sri be worse though. I would have preferred keeling it at 1 and increasing the costs of binding substantially.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <10-19-19/0500:41> »
Binding already cost thousands of nuyen per attempt, and it didn't stop anyone. Multiple Spirits without the whole 'I'm rich as fuck because I got nothing to spend my cash on, so can afford to spend downtime binding a massive Spirit army and just throw an army down whenever I want' isn't a balance problem.

As for a Force 12: Give me 5 karma for an Expertise and some karma for +4 Summoning Foci, for 19 dice, and with just a mere 2 Edge expense I can hit 39.71% chance to score at least 1 service. As long as the character is solid enough to survive the drain, which let's say 4 Initiations will bring to ~25 dice for an Elven Shaman... Let me check how well they can handle at that point... 1.15 drain taken on average then, without applying Edge.

Given how you could spend 50*12=600 nuyen per attempt to get at least 1 Edge, I'm going to assume we always force 1 reroll since the GM won't let us keep Edge once we start resting... Odds of the opponent rolling 0 hits are incredibly small so we can just always apply -1+1d{0,0,1}... That makes it 0.88 drain on average, with about 1/7 chance of 3+ drain taken. So given 8 hours of preptime, this build can summon, rest, summon, rest, repeat until the roll difference is in its favour and then throw down 3 Edge (1 from the Reagents and 2 from natural Edge) to make the roll even better. There's 24% chance to score at least 1 net hit in the 19 vs 24 test, so let's assume we do 5 attempts for 3k Nuyen. We then have 1+ service, and on average score 2 more thanks to forcing the Spirit to reroll 3 of their hits.

So I think an F12 Spirit is still quite doable with minmaxing: Get to 25 drain dice with 5+8 attributes +4+4 Increase Attribute Focused Concentration +4 Centering, get to 19 Summoning dice with Focus and Expertise, 63 karma.

I think as Houserule I'd make oversummoning 'Due to forcing your inferior magic upon a creature from the Metaplanes, you generate (Spirit Force - Your Magic) in Edge against you that is used on rerolling your hits'. That makes oversummoning very very hard very quickly, even if it won't impact the drain, just your odds.

https://anydice.com/program/18317 for the math I used here.

Edit: Note that I didn't even take Mentor Spirit (though the question is, what does edge boost discount mean, is it 'rerolls won't be affected since 1-1=0 but minimum is 1', or 'rerolling X dice will cost X-1 edge, minimum cost 1') or Spirit Affinity into account in the math here, which makes it even easier. If anyone wants me to math out Chargen 19 Drain Dice (no Elf) and Chargen 14 Summoning Dice with Mentor Spirit, Affinity and Reagents on an F10 instead, feel free to ask if you consider it useful for the debate.
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