[Michael Chandra]

I can create builds that come with specific benefits that other builds cannot reach without being worse in some areas, even though after say another 60 karma and 100k nuyen another build could be superior. One can argue my build is less efficient, but that's only with the long-term in mind. Straight out of chargen the benefits I picked might actually have been benefits I desired due to my specific goals. Yes, karmawise I might be less efficient, but math might be objective, but when you start giving meaning to the numbers, objectiveness becomes the square root of -1.

And it should be noted, there are 120 ways of picking priorities and that's without involving metatype, qualities, gear and karma usage. It's literally impossible to NOT have cases where you can build in two ways and one is superior. That is not a flaw in the system, that's inherent in any system with choice.

As for Karma Builds: Choice paralysis is hostile to players. Arguing Priority is bad and Karma-gen is good is something that's not allowed within the same continent of the term 'objectively', by legal restraining order.

[Cynical Paladin]

Thanks for the input, this more or less answers my question.  At least now I know why the devs did what they did.

But, I have to say that i agree with Stainless Steel Devil Rat and ZeroSum regarding the new priority system.  It's been my experience that if everyone is doing the same thing there is a problem somewhere. The new priority system as written shoehorns players toward choosing priority A for attributes.  Not because they want their character to have good stats, but because all other choices are sub-optimal.  I love the priority system for character creation, I love the way it forces you to make choices to get the character you want.  But, if some choices are CLEARLY better than others in most or all instances then, its not really a choice is it?

So as a GM I'm going to have to make some adjustments, probable to a combination of 5th and 6th edition.  Because, there are some things about the new system I like.  Trolls.  Yes they have slightly lower physical stats, but their mental stats are more of less in line with everyone else.  This means that characters like a Troll Mage or a Troll Decker are much more viable than they were before.  This, to me, is a change worth having.

[DigitalZombie]

I had the same concerns as you.
I even made a small Challenge to chummers here-  they had to build an "okayish" runner with Attributes E.

One of them was actually Better than feared.... But it still led me to make some alterations to the priority system.

https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30144.0

But its not only the attribute column thats somewhat skewed. Adjustment points with an A. Is also a vastly inferior choice.

Not to mention the special column had some issues as well.

If you are interested, here is my altered priority system. ( Nothing is set in Stone, so feedback is welcome).
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJrxd_AvH

[Michael Chandra]

I'm honestly surprised people insist Attributes A is best, even as Social Street Sam I lean towards Skills A, Attributes B, Resources C. As full street sam, I just go Resources A, Attributes B, Skills C. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. I'm not interested in getting the most karma out of my choices, but want a viable character that's capable of what I want, and in many cases that's skills A because B simply doesn't cut it, while sometimes I just want to completely gear out from the start. Even Used Muscle Toner 4, Uscled Muscle Augmentation 4, Used Synaptic Boosters 3 is already all of Resources B spent, and at that point I haven't even started yet.

[Hobbes]

Attributes B is 16 points, so 3 in each stat (obviously most builds would shuffle those around).  Certainly playable, but there aren't many builds that wouldn't be more mechanically efficient with A stats.  8 Attribute points are huge.  With an Augmented Max attribute, a single skill point and a specialization gets you 13 Dice.  Another 10 Karma gets that to 14 dice, and your second Specialization. 

Even with Skills and Attributes costing the same Karma to raise, it's still more efficient to have high Attributes and low skills because of the lower costs of the first Skill Rank, Specializations and Expertise.

Going from 3 to 4 in an Attribute costs 20 Karma, gets you one dice in a few skills.  Same 20 Karma gets you a Skill, two Specializations, and an Expertise.  4 to 5 in an Attribute is 25 Karma and that gets you the same Skill plus two Specializations and an Expertise, and you can open another skill at 1. 

45 Karma, Attribute 3 to 5, +2 Dice all skills and related dice pools.
or
45 Karma, +1 to three skills, +4 to the two most common dice pools, +3 to the two next most common dice pools.  Not a lot of Attributes with more than three Active skills.

Anyway, from a mechanical standpoint most builds are better with higher Attributes and picking up skill points with Karma.  That math only changed a little bit between 5th and 6th.  It's less loppysided than it was, but the math still strongly favors starting Attributes over starting Skills.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Resources can affect the Attributes vs Skills calculus, though*.  Where Attribute of X + Skill of Y = Dice Pool of Z, buying some augmentations can compensate for a lower X without lowering Z.  And if/when Active Skillwires become a thing again in 6we, then you can just flat out buy skills with nuyen/essence, as well.  But just with the CRB you can only buy "attribute points" with nuyen and essence, but not skills.


*Same is also true for Magicians with Adept Powers and/or Increase Attribute spell...

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah A attributes has two primary draws imo. 1 it is the most cost effective method. 2. Due to their being 8 stats without A you are seriously dumping stats to excel in your specialty.

And ware doesn’t really change that. 6 agility may be great for a normal but not for a street sam so base 2+4 just isn’t the same as base 6+4. All ware does is shift the numbers of what a priority and dump stat is considered.

I’d happily take B if b didn’t give me actively bad stats for most builds. You can wrangle B or C to working with the right race priority but now you are using 2 columns just to get what one could have. To just get to where A attributes is with b you’d need c race and devote almost al of your racial priorities to cover your stats.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Obviously 2+4 is inferior to 6+4... but if you got more skill points because you picked a lower attribute priority, you can dip into resources and 4(6)+6 is better still.

[Hobbes]

Resources can affect the Attributes vs Skills calculus, though*.  Where Attribute of X + Skill of Y = Dice Pool of Z, buying some augmentations can compensate for a lower X without lowering Z.  And if/when Active Skillwires become a thing again in 6we, then you can just flat out buy skills with nuyen/essence, as well.  But just with the CRB you can only buy "attribute points" with nuyen and essence, but not skills.


*Same is also true for Magicians with Adept Powers and/or Increase Attribute spell...

I think the only build that comes out "ahead" is the Matrix all Logic, stay in the Van build.  Engineering, Biotech, ect, ect... one Attribute, many skills based on that Attribute.  And I think Logic is the only Attribute with enough skills to pull it off.  I think in every other case you're mathematically more karma efficient putting a higher priority in Attributes than skills.  My case study is posted in the Support Mage build.  Magic, Matrix, and Social, tried that build multiple ways, Attributes A was the most dice for the things I wanted. 

Skillwires may change that.  And how sad is it that until this thread I didn't realize they weren't in 6th edition CRB.  They've been such a niche thing in every edition I didn't even notice they weren't in 6th.  Anyway, if Skillwires somehow turn out more efficient than 19 Reflex Recorders I'll be pleasantly surprised.  (yes I know you can't take Reflex Recorders for 19 skills...)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well Skillwires ARE in the CRB... but Active Skillwires (the ones that have an unchanging, preprogrammed skill) aren't yet.

[Ajax]

While Karma Builds are definitely more complex, they are objectively more balanced because the balancing act of priority tables are not involved.

That’s why I’ve always liked the “Sum to 10” system. It seemed a good compromise between the simplicity of the Priority Chart and the complexity of Karma Points.

[Shinobi Killfist]

While Karma Builds are definitely more complex, they are objectively more balanced because the balancing act of priority tables are not involved.

That’s why I’ve always liked the “Sum to 10” system. It seemed a good compromise between the simplicity of the Priority Chart and the complexity of Karma Points.

The thing with any of the priority systems including sum to 10 is it emphasizes literal min max builds. Whether that is good or bad is up to the group. But due to scaling karma costs(I would have preferred flat) it pushes you to max out what you can and leave everything else at a minimum since it’s relatively cheap to boost a 1 to a 3 as opposed as 4 to a 6.

People focus on the priority and points and how it doesn’t jive with karma scaling positing it should start out using karma. But, if karma expenditures were flat like the points in priority we wouldn’t have that disconnect. And mechanically a die is a die is a die. Whether it’s my 6th die in agility or my 3rd it’s still just one die. So scaling costs are a bit weird mechanically. They do help represent the idea that it’s easy to grow from nothing to basic levels but hard to master most subjects. A person can get competent in a month in many subjects but it can take years and years to master the same thing.

So it’s a question of math balance vs realism on the karma side.