[Hephaestus]

There is a reason that Distinctive Style is a negative quality. It can get you killed, just like bringing a crap gun to a gun fight.

There is a difference between Distinctive Style and playing Dwarf or Ork or Human because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics, or picking shamanistic magician or hermetic magician because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics or that you buy a shotgun, heavy pistol or SMG because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics.

I would posit that making shotguns less attractive options is more detrimental to style than you think. A player can make whatever style choices they want, but they should not be punished for them.

...do them justice and give them a mechanical reason to exist in the game.

First of all they are relatively cheap (which do matter if you for example are awakened or emerged and start the game with resource priority E).

The advantage of the defiance T-250 is that it clear glitch jams with a Minor Action. Good if your dice pool is small enough that risk of glitch is relatively high.

The advantage of the PJSS Model 55 is that it have the highest AR of all weapons in the 3-50 meter range category (shared only by the Praetor SMG, but compared to Praetor PJSS still have higher AR at the 51-250 meter range).

The advantage of the roomsweeper is that it is deal the most damage of all other heavy pistols, including Ruger Super Warhawk.

If you're awakened or emerged, you are probably not gearing up for frontline combat duty, which is the only place shotguns work. I have never played with anyone running a mage/shaman/techno that carried anything more than an SMG, because they are either wearing them out to not get geeked first, or trying to conceal them so they have a backup in case they actually have to use them. Both are style choices, and both have mechanical reasons that they work.

I do like the ability to clear jams as a minor action. That is a solid perk to the T-250.

The PJS has the highest AR in close range (12). Yay! So long as nobody wears an Armor Jacket and has BOD 4 or higher, you get an Edge! 

And if the Roomsweeper is still a heavy pistol, then put it with the heavy pistols. Don't call it out as a shotgun and then make all the rules the same as heavy pistols.

- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...

What does the barrel length have to do with ammo capacity?

The short barrel version in SR5 had the same ammo capacity, easier to conceal, shorter range and less DV (it was also all described in the body text of the weapon).

In SR6 it also have the same ammo capacity, it also easier to conceal, it also have reduced range (increased close AR and decreased near and medium AR), and it also have decreased DV - very similar to its SR5 counterpart I'd say.

Five rounds in a magazine would stick out about 12"-15", not including the grip, ammo feed, and barrel overhang. How are you fitting that into the profile of a light pistol?

- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.

IIRC SR5 does not have specific listed prices for drums (or belts), either

I think the intent is that you just use the Spare Clip cost and fill it with ammo.

Okay then. Mechanically different, but handwaved away.

- PJSS Model 55 has rules for firing both barrels as a short burst (of course with Not Enough Rounds tacked on).

Yes, this is a copy pasta mistake from SR5. In SR6, SA already mean that you fire twice and a SA "burst" is only 2 slugs anyways. The "BF (short)" listing should be removed.

So firing slugs from both barrels of a double-barrel gun simultaneously can hit two different targets? That's just silly.

- Remington Roomsweeper calls out that it is double-barreled, but has no rules for firing both barrels. And calls out that you can use heavy pistol ammo in it inaccurately, but gives no rules for doing this.

It is correctly listed as SA mode, which in SR6 mean you fire twice in one attack. It fired heavy pistol ammo (and used heavy pistol ranges) in SR5 as well.

Heavy pistol slug ammo is what is used in the table. If you load it with flechette then you reduce DV by 1 and increase AR by 1 across all three range categories.

So do all shotgun use heavy pistol rounds?

[Xenon]

I would posit that making shotguns less attractive options is more detrimental to style than you think. A player can make whatever style choices they want, but they should not be punished for them.

Not sure I follow. Shotguns deal between 4P to 5P and are great at near range (in the case of PJSS Model 55 it is even best in slot) but they also work fine in both close range and medium range (which is basically anything between 0 and 250 meters).

Whats so bad about them...??

If you're awakened or emerged, you are probably not ...

I've seen magicians with shotguns Your players probably used SMGs (or machine pistols) because they picked the automatic weapon skill (which was arguably quite a lot better than the alternatives in the previous edition since it gave you a lot more options)

The PJS has the highest AR in close range (12). Yay! So long as nobody wears an Armor Jacket and has BOD 4 or higher, you get an Edge!

It is an advantage and it might very well be a reason for someone to pick it up.

Many weapon in the tables are not best in slot in any single category ;-)

For example, why pick up any of the Colt Cobra TZ series when you could pick up a FN P93 Praetor?

How are you fitting that into the profile of a light pistol?

Why are you assuming that a shotgun with a slightly shorter barrel suddenly get a profile of a light pistol....??

So firing slugs from both barrels of a double-barrel gun simultaneously can hit two different targets?

Where do you get the idea that you are allowed to hit two different targets with SA mode?

SR6 p. 109 SA
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1.

There is no mentioning about hitting multiple targets as far as I can see.

Remington Roomsweeper...

...It fired heavy pistol ammo (and used heavy pistol ranges) in SR5 as well...Heavy pistol slug ammo is what is used in the table.

So do all shotgun use heavy pistol rounds?

Why are you assuming that all shotguns fire heavy pistol ammo?
I said that the Remington Roomsweeper does (because that is what the book says).

SR6 p. 256 Remington Roomsweeper
If you’re not a fan of flechette shooters, load some Heavy Pistol rounds into a Roomsweeper and she shoots like a really inaccurate hand cannon.

If you don't care about attack rating (and it doesn't seem as if you do) then the Roomsweeper is arguably the best hand cannon in the entire game ;-)

[Hephaestus]

Rolling through the comments w/o the wall of text:

I usually don't lean on realism in RPGs, but the ranges listed for shotguns (even with slugs) are just crap. A 12-gauge slug loses more than half of its energy at around 70 meters, and the ballistics go to drek beyond ~45 meters. There is no way a slug is going to be accurate to 250 meters. Shotguns really shouldn't have a medium range increment at all.

In a vacuum, shotguns don't look bad on paper. In this edition, they immediately get overshadowed by rifles in almost every category but price. In fifth, they had the spread rule to catch multiple targets with one shot, which while not super effective at range, made close encounters fragging terrifying in close spaces.

A good fix would be to use the next firing mode up per ammo count (one shell for SA, two shells for BF) when using buckshot, but drop the medium range increment regardless of ammo type.
_____

Why get a Colt Cobra TZ instead of a FN P93 Praetor? You wouldn't, unless it was all that was available, or you were short 85¥-195¥. And to that effect, why would you bother with any of the shotguns if you could afford a Praetor?
_____

As for the profile of a light pistol, it is called out in the concealability table on pg. 246, where rating 3 is listed as "pocket-sized" with the example given of a light pistol. Even if you cut down the barrel, a shotgun is easily 2-3 times the size of a light pistol, and would not fit in a normal pocket. A shotgun is about the size of a rifle (C1), so a sawed-off would be about the size of an SMG (C2).
_____

The PJS Model 55 calls out firing both barrels as a short burst (a subset of BF on pg. 109), not just semi-automatic. BF attacks can hit two targets by RAW, so even though you are letting both shots fly simultaneously, they can be directed at two separate targets.
_____

The Roomsweeper aside, how much does shotgun ammo cost? It's not listed anywhere.

[penllawen]

- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...

What does the barrel length have to do with ammo capacity?

The short barrel version in SR5 had the same ammo capacity, easier to conceal, shorter range and less DV (it was also all described in the body text of the weapon).

- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.

IIRC SR5 does not have specific listed prices for drums (or belts), either

"This thing is confusing"
"It was confusing in SR5 also"
...is not a compelling defence of SR6. Apart from anything else, you'd hope that "fix things that were confusing in SR5" was fairly high up the SR6 todo list.

[Xenon]

There is no way a slug is going to be accurate to 250 meters.

They have similar AR at medium range as heavy pistols and SMGs (which are arguably also not very accurate at 250 meters). While they can be used, medium range arguably outside of their comfort zone. From a tactical point of view you should probably avoid shooting a well built street samurai at medium range with them. Medium range seem to be the comfort zone of assault rifles.

In a vacuum, shotguns don't look bad on paper. In this edition, they immediately get overshadowed by rifles in almost every category but price.

Shotguns are cheap near range rifles to be compared more with heavy pistols and SMGs rather than assault rifles.

In fifth, they had the spread rule to catch multiple targets with one shot...

Which was highly unrealistic, as have already been discussed.

A good fix would be to use the next firing mode up per ammo count (one shell for SA, two shells for BF) when using buckshot, but drop the medium range increment regardless of ammo type.

That is a terrible fix as it mechanically doesn't do anything really except increasing DV by 1 and decreasing AR by 2 (as well as adding confusion and unnecessary complexity about how many slugs that are spend when firing in SA and BF mode).

It would be a much better solution to just factor that into base DV and AR values (and for all we know they probably already done that).

Compared to SMGs, shotguns are game mechanically generally identical except that they might be harder to conceal, might do more damage and might have less AR at melee range.

You wouldn't, unless it was....

My point is that there is really nothing wrong with shotguns. There are similar weapons and there are worse weapons and there are better weapons. It depend on what you are looking for.

And to that effect, why would you bother with any of the shotguns if you could afford a Praetor?

Because;

• you like to use shotguns rather than SMGs (because of style)
• Praetor is more expansive
• Both PJSS and Mossberg are more efficient at medium range, slightly overlapping the bridge to assault rifles (Praetor AR values are already factoring in laser sight while the shotguns are not)
• Both version of Defiance get to clear glitch jams with a minor action
• Roomsweeper deal more damage

Take your pick.

As for the profile of a light pistol, it is called out in the concealability table on pg. 246

Thank you.

To be honest I think this is a mistake and the concealability of the short barrel version should be 2 (this would also match more with SR5 values where it went from +6, same as assault rifles, to +4 - while SMGs and machine pistols with folding stock was at +2 and remington roomsweeper was at +0)

The reasoning could also be that with a shortened barrel it is roughly as long as a SMG, but it is probably not as wide. Making it easier to conceal under your coat or in your pants.

I'll make an entry about it in the errata thread over at reddit.

BF attacks can hit two targets by RAW...

BF (short) is a direct copy pasta mistake from SR5 (it is quite obvious if you compare the text).

SR5 BF mode meant that the weapon would automatically fire 3 rounds at the same target when you tapped the trigger once. Target got a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice on their defense test. This was a simple action. It could not be split upon two different targets. BF (short) meant that you would fire both barrels at the same time on the same target but rather than firing 3 bullets you would just fire 2 (and rather than a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice the target got a negative dice pool modifier of 1 dice).

In SR5, SA mode mean you fire 2 shells in one action. When used against one target you +1 DV and -2 AR. This is mechanically the same as using BF mode doing a wide burst but only attacking one opponent. In SR5 it would mechanically be enough to just list SS/SA (or just SA as all SA weapons also have SS firing modes according to the starter rules) as valid firing modes. That they also list BF (short) is a mistake and is subject for errata.

I'll make an entry about it in the errata thread over at reddit.

The Roomsweeper aside, how much does shotgun ammo cost? It's not listed anywhere.

It is not listed anywhere (RAW) and would be subject for errata (same as auto cannon ammo are also not listed).

The intention (RAI) might have been for shotguns to use Rifle ammo prices and damage values.

This is already listed in the errata thread over at reddit.

is not a compelling defence of SR6

No, but if it worked for so many years without people arguing that the edition is totally unplayable then it will probably work a few more years.

Both editions list the cost for Empty Clip (5 nuyen, p. 261).
The intention is that you use that for empty magazines, drums, belts, etc.

I'll make an entry about it in the errata thread over at reddit.

[penllawen]

No, but if it worked for so many years without people arguing that the edition is totally unplayable then it will probably work a few more years.

Where did anyone say it was “totally unplayable”? Or is this a strawman argument?

[Finstersang]

I´d say that a good start would be applying different modifiers according to the Range Bands.

Something like this:

• Close Range: +1 Damage
• Near Range: +2 AR
• Medium Range: -2 AR, -1 Damage

On close range, you get the full boom of a direct, devastating Shotgun blast. No adjustments to the AR, though: The spread of the flechette rounds has not enough space to "bloom" at this range to compensate for the fact that Long-barreled weapons are not well suited for close range/melee situations (BTW: I really like the fact that the AR tables are also used to reflect melee viability!). On near range, you have that spread that might help you overcome the DR of the target better. Since Shotguns are already a top choice for that range, this further enhances their real strength. At medium range, the Flechettes lose their effectiveness, resulting in a drop in AR and Damage.

Or: If you prefer a simpler and less wordy solution, you can also ditch the damage adjustments and go with something like this:

+0 | +2 | -2 | -4 | -6     

This one is just a simple adjustment of AR over different range bands. Easy to remember, easy to note, meaningful enough to be considered a tactical choice for fans of near-range shotgun action and urban combat. And most importantly, not a total mechanical trap 

(I also added adjustments for long and extreme ranges, because who who knows )     

[penllawen]

Oooh, I like that a lot.

[Finstersang]

Thanks, I appreciate it 

[Hephaestus]

Since style keeps coming up, I have to ask what would make a shotgun a compelling stylistic choice? Does a shotgun look pretty? Does it make you look like a badass? If one of your players wants to take one, that's fine, but I have a feeling that after a couple of engagements they are going to swap out for something better. Style usually takes a backseat to not dieing. Most people I've played with take shotguns because they are big scary guns that throw a cloud of shot at a target. Not because they look pretty.

The simple truth is that both SR5 and SR6 failed to capture what makes a SHOTgun a shotgun, which is the use of SHOT, not slugs. And the justification given for both editions is weak at best. And instead of being open to discussing changes to make them mechanically different or interesting, CGL has just said "works as intended, so why are you complaining?" Or "just use flechette ammo. Its close enough. Problem solved".

I honestly sometimes wonder if the writers have ever fired a gun before...

[Xenon]

I still don't understand your obsession with SR6 shotguns. They deal good damage and they have good attack ratings at the intended Near range category. Compared to heavy pistols and SMGs (which also share Near as their optimal range category) I would say they are in a really good spot.

Shotguns loaded with regular shots (20+ small "pellets") are not very efficient against anything but smaller game such as rabbits, vermin, ducks and clay pigeons. If you plan on hunting medium sized game with a shotgun you would probably instead use ammunition that have fewer but bigger "pellets" (like 00 shots that only have perhaps 8-9 "pellets"). Slugs are primarily used when it comes to deer, elk, bears, hogs and other large or thick-skinned creatures.

Translated to Shadowrun, where everyone is assumed to wear some sort of body armor (which have some 60 years of evolution compared to body armor found today) and where you have big trolls that are built tough and have dermal deposits, it is also not really strange that the default ammunition is slugs rather than shots

I personally also think it is perfectly fine that you gain a point (or two) of Attack Rating, but also that you lose a point of damage, if you switch from slugs to 00 shots.

A more interesting discussion might be if assault rifles should have a slightly reduced attack rating at the near range category (in favor to heavy pistols, SMGs and shotguns), but I feel that that is another topic.

[Finstersang]

Shotguns loaded with regular shots (20+ small "pellets") are not very efficient against anything but smaller game such as rabbits, vermin, ducks and clay pigeons. If you plan on hunting medium sized game with a shotgun you would probably instead use ammunition that have fewer but bigger "pellets" (like 00 shots that only have perhaps 8-9 "pellets"). Slugs are primarily used when it comes to deer, elk, bears, hogs and other large or thick-skinned creatures.

True, and that´s precisely why the default "Shot" for the Shotguns in a Shadowrunner´s toolkit (apart from Slugs) are Flechettes and not Bird- or Buckshots. These are designed to be used against people. That´s why I´m - well, one might call it obsessed  - with the fact that Flechettes (along with APDS) are dead entries in the Ammo section right now.

Admittingly, this is more of a pet peeve for my compared to other issues in SR6. Maybe there will be some kind of errata  on this, or just some other/better/alternative Shotgun Ammo types in the Combat rulebook. It´s surely worth a shot (*badum tss*) to offer rules and stats for stuff like Dragon´s Breath (wonder if S-K has trademark on that?) because this is one actual, undeniable benefit of Shotguns: You can load some pretty crazy stuff in a round.   

[Xenon]

Game mechanic wise I actually think it make sense that Flechette deal slightly less damage but have a higher AR (but maybe it should be +2 rather than +1) as this make them better at gaining tactical advantage with if your opponents don't have very strong armor but worse at penetrating barriers.

I covered my thoughts on APDS pretty well in another topic (but long story short I think it make sense that APDS deal less damage as well, but rather than having an AR increase like Flechette I think they could maybe use some tweaks focused on making them better against heavy armored targets as well as targets that have hardened armor)