[penllawen]

And of course, there's still Astral Barriers too to simply stop people from walking around with spells.

Magicians are supposed to be rare, and according to 6e RAW, barriers are hard work to cast. Taken together, those make mana barriers expensive. There's a limit on how far you can scatter mana barriers around the world before you stretch the fluff to breaking point.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

And of course, there's still Astral Barriers too to simply stop people from walking around with spells.

Magicians are supposed to be rare, and according to 6e RAW, barriers are hard work to cast. Taken together, those make mana barriers expensive. There's a limit on how far you can scatter mana barriers around the world before you stretch the fluff to breaking point.

Eh, not really.

Sure, magicians are rare.  That means if you ARE a magician, especially one with security expertise/ability to cast wards, you can write your own meal ticket.  It takes a few hours to refresh a ward that's going to last weeks.  One contractor can ward dozens of sites all by himself, and that's before figuring the higher security places that can afford to keep an astral mage on retainer.

[GuardDuty]

And of course, there's still Astral Barriers too to simply stop people from walking around with spells.

Magicians are supposed to be rare, and according to 6e RAW, barriers are hard work to cast. Taken together, those make mana barriers expensive. There's a limit on how far you can scatter mana barriers around the world before you stretch the fluff to breaking point.

Eh, not really.

Sure, magicians are rare.  That means if you ARE a magician, especially one with security expertise/ability to cast wards, you can write your own meal ticket.  It takes a few hours to refresh a ward that's going to last weeks.  One contractor can ward dozens of sites all by himself, and that's before figuring the higher security places that can afford to keep an astral mage on retainer.

There are security measures, like awakened ivy, used to create natural astral barriers, aren't there?  I imagine those kinds of things are easier to come by than back in the late 2050s or whenever it was they were introduced.

[penllawen]

Sure, magicians are rare.  That means if you ARE a magician, especially one with security expertise/ability to cast wards, you can write your own meal ticket.  It takes a few hours to refresh a ward that's going to last weeks.  One contractor can ward dozens of sites all by himself, and that's before figuring the higher security places that can afford to keep an astral mage on retainer.

It lasts for 1 week per net hit on a Sorcery + Magic test against a threshold of 6. What stats are we assuming for a typical wagemage? 10 dice pool? 12? Threshold 6 is a heck of a lot. It also takes four hours to cast. Assuming each ward lasts two weeks (doubtful, given that threshold), one wagemage would max out at 2x per day (don't forget travel time between sites), or 12x per week (even wagemages get one day off), or two dozen maximum wards.

You can throw more mages at the problem, but that isn't going to make it any cheaper. Speaking of cheaper, you also need reagents for at least the temporary lodge you need at the ward site.

Also, at Magic 6, it only encompasses 300 cubic metres - that's a small three storey house. So if you want anythng larger warded, you need more casters and/or people who are Initiated.

Also also, what's an overworked wagemage going to do when a ward gets torn down? If he's halfway through making the next ward somewhere else -- does he stop and abandon it to raise the alarm with the owners of the warded property? Hell, how confusing is it for a wagemage to receive a "oooh a ward was just taken down" spidey-sense if he has two dozen of them up? How does he know which is which?

[Typhus]

Check out 6we's version of dispelling spells

Oof.  Boosted Defense is definitely in the nerf category.  Perhaps rightly so, but wow.  Ineffective is an understatement.

Dispelling is ... well, it still takes a number of turns to do if someone is running several.  Easier to start throwing grenades.  Since armor is irrelevant, that boost for the mage means next to nothing.  Grenades are a better solution all around.  That's one way to counter them I guess.

Could a mage hold a major action to catch grenades with a levitate spell?

[Lormyr]

But I don’t think mages really should be perma buffing themselves. I think focussed concentration should just halve sustaining penalties and quickenings and sustaining focusses should at most be one spell per target.

At least in the context of 5e Missions, one thing that Quickening did help with is limiting hits since the campaign rule was they must always be bought. Outside of my core group I did not encounter many people that used Quickening. What I did encounter was a lot of people that would use either pre-edge or reagents to set the limit on Force 4ish defense/initiative spells (mainly armor, combat sense, and increase reflexes), and just do it over and over again until they get 10 or 12 hits, buy the negligible drain, and take a shot of psyche to half the sustain penalty or loop the spell into an equally low force sustaining foci.

Check out 6we's version of dispelling spells.  I don't see a team of shadowrunners walking around like astral christmas trees being a thing when astral security can just pick them off of you at no cost.  Oh, you shift to astral perception to see why your spells are dropping?  Boom, meet the astral mage's 3xMag in Force of Spirits to punish you for looking.

Yeah, the dispelling formula is significantly more friendly towards the dispeller now than it was in 5e.

Oof.  Boosted Defense is definitely in the nerf category.  Perhaps rightly so, but wow.  Ineffective is an understatement.

What do you find to be ineffective about it? I find it to be strictly stronger. Aoe radius, multiple round duration, and attribute + skill + metamagic + foci for the roll for 6e. vs. single spell target, no duration, and skill + metamagic + foci only in 5e.

[Typhus]

What do you find to be ineffective about it?

My memory may be faulty here but back in the day you used to simply be able to allocate bonus dice to defenders equal to your skill.  Everyone in LOS? you are good.  No rolls, no durations, just the equivalent of overwatch.

Now you can only hit 4 targets at best, it lasts for only a few rounds, and provides only a variable number of dice.  Starting characters might get a 12 dice pool, which means average of +4 defense dice, which means maybe 1 extra success.  You then have to continually recast the effect, costing you a major action each time.  Good luck getting a second "huddle up" in combat, if you even got the first one.  Double those dice to 24?  +8 defense dice = an extra +2 hits on average.  Better bet is to 'nade the enemy caster ASAP.  ROI is minimal otherwise.  If it's better than 5E, yikes for 5E...

[Typhus]

Just checked 5e.  It works the way I remember, which seems much more effective.  Counterspelling skill of up to 8 dice from chargen?  2 hits before a foci is even involved.  No limits on range or area, just LOS.  Much better.

[Typhus]

Man, this joint needs CAPTCHA or something...

[Typhus]

Wwwwaaaait a tic.

You are saying the 6WE applies to every magic attack until it expires?  So not just a one defense per round effect like before?  OK, that makes more sense then.  It changes the game world physics, but I see what you are saying now. 

Still seems like a more complicated way to get to the same result.  Could have just said spell defense applies to all magical attacks while the effect was sustained and dropped the per round exhaustion part.  Less dice rolling and things to track.  Tax the caster a minor to put people under it if they drop out and then need to come back in.  LOS is hard to keep in a combat.

[Shinobi Killfist]

What do you find to be ineffective about it?

My memory may be faulty here but back in the day you used to simply be able to allocate bonus dice to defenders equal to your skill.  Everyone in LOS? you are good.  No rolls, no durations, just the equivalent of overwatch.

Now you can only hit 4 targets at best, it lasts for only a few rounds, and provides only a variable number of dice.  Starting characters might get a 12 dice pool, which means average of +4 defense dice, which means maybe 1 extra success.  You then have to continually recast the effect, costing you a major action each time.  Good luck getting a second "huddle up" in combat, if you even got the first one.  Double those dice to 24?  +8 defense dice = an extra +2 hits on average.  Better bet is to 'nade the enemy caster ASAP.  ROI is minimal otherwise.  If it's better than 5E, yikes for 5E...

Yeah it’s pretty bad this edition. They had a bizarre need to shift everything into their 2 meter radius paradigm and the need for a complex action wrecks it. If it was complex to start but a minor to sustain it might be usable. As is, if you option is provide limited defense or kill them you go with kill them. It really only works like during a breach or ambush. You set up the defense then hit go.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Sure, magicians are rare.  That means if you ARE a magician, especially one with security expertise/ability to cast wards, you can write your own meal ticket.  It takes a few hours to refresh a ward that's going to last weeks.  One contractor can ward dozens of sites all by himself, and that's before figuring the higher security places that can afford to keep an astral mage on retainer.

It lasts for 1 week per net hit on a Sorcery + Magic test against a threshold of 6. What stats are we assuming for a typical wagemage? 10 dice pool? 12? Threshold 6 is a heck of a lot. It also takes four hours to cast. Assuming each ward lasts two weeks (doubtful, given that threshold), one wagemage would max out at 2x per day (don't forget travel time between sites), or 12x per week (even wagemages get one day off), or two dozen maximum wards.

You can throw more mages at the problem, but that isn't going to make it any cheaper. Speaking of cheaper, you also need reagents for at least the temporary lodge you need at the ward site.

Also, at Magic 6, it only encompasses 300 cubic metres - that's a small three storey house. So if you want anythng larger warded, you need more casters and/or people who are Initiated.

Also also, what's an overworked wagemage going to do when a ward gets torn down? If he's halfway through making the next ward somewhere else -- does he stop and abandon it to raise the alarm with the owners of the warded property? Hell, how confusing is it for a wagemage to receive a "oooh a ward was just taken down" spidey-sense if he has two dozen of them up? How does he know which is which?

And it’s force net hits on that test. See my ritual magic thread. Until you get to a team tossing 24 dice using edge it’s just a average ward at best. You may be setting off alarms if unwary but wards are more a minor nuisance now if you actually use the math. Now a astral mage casting a man barrier spell in front of a quickened up mage will wreck them. Barrier 10 rolls 20 dice vs those spells.

[Shinobi Killfist]

But I don’t think mages really should be perma buffing themselves. I think focussed concentration should just halve sustaining penalties and quickenings and sustaining focusses should at most be one spell per target.

At least in the context of 5e Missions, one thing that Quickening did help with is limiting hits since the campaign rule was they must always be bought. Outside of my core group I did not encounter many people that used Quickening. What I did encounter was a lot of people that would use either pre-edge or reagents to set the limit on Force 4ish defense/initiative spells (mainly armor, combat sense, and increase reflexes), and just do it over and over again until they get 10 or 12 hits, buy the negligible drain, and take a shot of psyche to half the sustain penalty or loop the spell into an equally low force sustaining foci.

Eh it helps. But a rando 12 die mage gets 3 hits 4 net on health spells that’s my cap anyways for attribute boosts and it’s not like I’m taking improved reflexes past that either since
I’d of capped out the minor actions. A GM can aggressively go after them but I’m not a fan of adversarial relationships with the players.

[penllawen]

And it’s force net hits on that test. See my ritual magic thread. Until you get to a team tossing 24 dice using edge it’s just a average ward at best. You may be setting off alarms if unwary but wards are more a minor nuisance now if you actually use the math. Now a astral mage casting a man barrier spell in front of a quickened up mage will wreck them. Barrier 10 rolls 20 dice vs those spells.

Indeed -- I was ignoring that in my worked example, but those are some weak-assed wards. Plus mages can quite easily sleaze through low-force wards now, right? So they're not even good alarms.

Bottom line is, I think SSDR's way off here; wards can't be reasonably used as a device to hamper mages with Quickened/sustained spells, at least without substantial houserules or outright ignoring RAW for NPC casters.

[penllawen]

What I did encounter was a lot of people that would use either pre-edge or reagents to set the limit on Force 4ish defense/initiative spells (mainly armor, combat sense, and increase reflexes), and just do it over and over again until they get 10 or 12 hits, buy the negligible drain, and take a shot of psyche to half the sustain penalty or loop the spell into an equally low force sustaining foci.

When you put it that way, it feels quite clear to me that the Force of the spell should interact with the maximum boost in some more direct way than the limit. Particularly as reagents exist. Perhaps a maximum boost of F/2, for example; something like that. What you describe there sounds downright abusive to me.

Also

buy the negligible drain

Did the GM not say "hahha, nope, we're gonna make you roll the drain and see when your luck runs out"? That's what I'd have done, for sure.