[penllawen]

Since this thread is basically Lormyr holding court, I wouldn't mind hearing his thoughts on foci.

+1, to both (Lormyr holding court in general, and foci in specific.)

Something else I pondered, having looked across the characters — Lormyr, do you think the 50% discount for used cyberware is a bit too generous?

[Lormyr]

A cut and paste from what I said to SSD:

So it basically breaks down like this:

A lot of people believe that quickening is the primary culprit, but it's not. Being able to permanently maintain a spell is only as useful as the spell itself. 6e fixed most of this problem by removing the defensive applications of armor, astral armor, deflection, prophylaxis, and so on. In 6e the power spells to quicken are increase attribute, increase reflexes, and levitate. Now that is still a very strong retinue of effects, but comparably so to ware and power points for augmentation, so at present it does not have a distinct advantage over other augmentation options aside from versatility (mental attributes).

The primary culprit is dice pool disparity, of which foci are a huge contributor. When the victim's maximum resistance pool is Attribute + Attribute (basically 20 dice at absolute maximum, and only if augmented by a mage since Willpower factors into almost every roll), but the caster's dice pool is Magic (no cap!?) + Skill (13 after max ranks and expertise) + foci (also no cap!?) of course magic is going to be an unstoppable force. You set the math up to be unbeatable from go. The disparity starts off minimal at chargen, and only increases in favor of the mage exponentially the more karma each character has.

I mean, just look at the formulas. If you consider going from Magic 6 to 12 with karma vs. 6 to 12 with a power foci the cost comparison is a joke. Sure, using foci has some downsides, but: 1), those downsides are non-existent vs. mundanes, which is the main balance problem to begin with, and 2), most of the time they are trivial because the God mage does not care about mortal concerns when he can cast his way through very nearly any issue.

The second reason foci are a problem is because not only do they add to your dice pool to make your chosen effect successfully function, they also add to your dice pool to resist the damage you take for making those effects better. Attribute + Attribute (again, 20 being an average cap with elves having a 3 die advantage) + Initiative Level (again, no cap) + foci rating (again, no cap).

By the time a mage has 100 karma, an optimized one will have a spellcasting dice pool and drain resistance dice pool both over 25.

That said, I don't have a problem with foci existing. The concept is cool, and it could be introduced in a balanced way. The bottom line is that magic, both the attribute and foci, need a maximum potential cap for mortal PCs. If you want to have dragons and immortal elves go higher, sure. Attribute cap of 12 and foci cap of 4 (with 4 being absurdly rare artifact level item, and with a dramatic cost increase across the board) would be my recommendation. Even then it still leaves magic at an advantage, but not with unlimited potential.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Given the edge system I was surprised focuses didn’t go that route like so much else. Like just two levels of focusses minor and major. Minor grants one edge that has to be used or lost in its field major also reduces the cost of edge use by one when using with the skill or ability its linked to.

Like a minor centering focus would give one edge when resisting drain and a major would also reduce the cost of using edge by 1.

Personally I’m fine with unlimited magic attribute just allow mundanes to increase their essence and reduce the cost of cyber so it’s something people can realistically buy in game.

 As an aside I’d rather they had kept the spells like 5e maybe some limits on stacking but removed unlimited sustaining. And I feel all magically active types should get sensitive system as a built in flaw for no points.

[markelphoenix]

For me, it comes down to the player and the GM. Last night, ran a 6e game, and everything played out fairly balanced. MVP actually went to the Decker for finding valuable data on target and follow up to our tweaky elf gun slinger who Panther Cannoned the big bad to the face. Mage provided heal support, levitated another baddy, and lightning while another mage made some crispy ghouls with a fireball. Over all, everyone got opportunity to take the stage and have meaningful contributions.

[Lormyr]

Glad you guys had fun Markelphoenix.

There is two factors to your experience there imo: 1st is play style in terms of optimization, 2nd is play style in terms of being a selfish player or a team player.

Playing on the "default" level, 6e holds up decently, even if I personally really dislike some of the changes (armor and strength specifically - it's playable, just nonsensical in a fashion I have a had time accepting). Once you get into high optimization though it gets really screwy really quickly.

The second situation has nothing at all to do with the game or mechanics, and is strictly an issue of player personality, though one with a huge impact on how the actual game will go. I find gaming to be most fun when everyone shares the limelight, but some people disagree and others just don't care about anyone's experience other than their own.

[markelphoenix]

I was a huge critic of Armor change until actually rolling the dice. The soaks of 5e were insane, so I get where they're coming from. Also, I noticed my players becoming Edge starved pretty quickly, so while people scoff at 1 edge from defense rating, it matters. Still not sure how to bridge the gap of "suspension of disbelief" that gets broken by armor's new function, though.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I was a huge critic of Armor change until actually rolling the dice. The soaks of 5e were insane, so I get where they're coming from. Also, I noticed my players becoming Edge starved pretty quickly, so while people scoff at 1 edge from defense rating, it matters. Still not sure how to bridge the gap of "suspension of disbelief" that gets broken by armor's new function, though.

That feels like it could just be the simply be the damage to soak ratio feeling right. I’ve said it before I don’t think the math on this isn’t bad outside some system mastery levels of explosive rounds burst etc but that doesn’t mean the armor gives the right feel. It’s easy to blow through edge so even if you gained one a turn from armor you’d constantly be running out. The issues people have is 2 edge limit stops it from helping you quick and there actually is a pretty narrow range where it matters. It has to be the right gun at the right range band with the right ammo because 4 points is a pretty big spread.

So while the soak pool may feel right armor might not. We’ve only done test scenarios so I can’t comment on like a run or ongoing campaign vibe of armor. But for us in the one off fights it didn’t feel like armor.

Even using the current games damages I don’t know that letting armor soak would throw things much. Yeah full armor a bit but armor jacket and a mask that’s like 1 less damage when shot. For me I don’t feel that would skew the math much but it would still feel like armor.

[Hephaestus]

Even using the current games damages I don’t know that letting armor soak would throw things much. Yeah full armor a bit but armor jacket and a mask that’s like 1 less damage when shot. For me I don’t feel that would skew the math much but it would still feel like armor.

+1 to this. The more I read about it, the more it feels like the removal of armor from soak was to force people to be reliant on Edge expenditures to reduce damage. Adding armor back into the soak pool might get you 1-2 additional hits, with the exception of skewed Troll Tanks in FBA.

[Lormyr]

Personally I’m fine with unlimited magic attribute just allow mundanes to increase their essence and reduce the cost of cyber so it’s something people can realistically buy in game.

While I find that idea to be decent in theory, in practice this is the problem I run into: at some point, many of the ware options either become redundant (muscle replacement with muscle toner, ect.), and some builds have no use for some ware.

More magic, on the other hand, never ceases to be useful, even if after a certain point of just more overkill it becomes diminishing returns.

As an aside I’d rather they had kept the spells like 5e maybe some limits on stacking but removed unlimited sustaining. And I feel all magically active types should get sensitive system as a built in flaw for no points.

Well they did create stacking limits in a sense by simply removing the use of many combat enhancing spells (combat sense, armor, deflection, ect., pretty much everything but increase attribute and increase reflexes). I personally dislike that, and think that a hard cap of quickened spells = to magic attribute would have been a better limit.

Also, I noticed my players becoming Edge starved pretty quickly

I noticed the same.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Presumedly if you have mundanes access to unlimited essence you’d redesign a few pieces of ware to become unlimited. Also if you paralleled magic in design you’d have a similar version of metamagic. Bring back redlining but not just for limb replacement. Someone who is pushing the limits gets more tricks out of it. Though at some point a lot of this is theoretical. How much essence would you chew through before you actually ran out of growth.

As for a magic limit of quickenings a 6 magic gets you 5 attributes and initiative boosters. So both your drain stats. Intuition and reaction and body. That’s already too far imo. But I don’t think mages really should be perma buffing themselves. I think focussed concentration should just halve sustaining penalties and quickenings and sustaining focusses should at most be one spell per target. Past that and they are as enhanced as street sams and adepts and that is their gimmick not a mages.(though pure adepts got hit hard this edition it really motivates burn outs which thematically and mechanically I’d like to penalize as I feel it fits the setting)

And while most of the spell changes imo just makes them worthless as no one will take them or use them the one I wish they would have weakened or just removed is improved initiative and it’s just as good as before. In the new system I don’t think it’s as necessary and allowing adepts/street sams to have that has their niche would be nice. It’s not a big thing but it the books that’s just their gimmick and this is the first edition where mechanically I think you can pull that off in a balanced way.

Overall I think the magic section seems to have been trying to address magic run complaints but saw problems in areas I didn’t see and weakened or changed things that didn’t need changing and strengthened or kept roughly the same the areas I felt were the unbalanced problem areas, and in areas it seems I and they saw a issue they attacked the symptom and not the root cause.

[penllawen]

And while most of the spell changes imo just makes them worthless as no one will take them or use them the one I wish they would have weakened or just removed is improved initiative and it’s just as good as before.

I'd like to see 6e Increased Reflexes nerfed so it adds +x/+xd6 but doesn't add extra Minor actions. In meatspace, keep the latter for physads/sammies only.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The problem with the notion of "Fixing MagicRun" is twofold: What counts as "fixing", and what counts as "MagicRun"?  The latter is a particular rub, as I doubt any two fans will define MagicRun the same way.

When it comes to nerfing mages in general... I think 6we gives more nerfing than boosting.  Not a WHOLE lot more, but some is better than none.

Spirits can use a Magical Nerf Bat beatdown (so that their ItNW doesn't kick in..) but Mages themselves I think are basically fine.

Adepts.. yeah I think they fell victim as collateral damage to the (imo) richly deserved kick in the gonads that MysAds received.  House rules can allow "Pure" Adepts to just benefit from PP gain while in Chargen, and with any luck it can be addressed in the next wave of errata if House Rules don't go far enough for ya.

[Typhus]

Well, the thing to keep in mind about "Magicrun" and "broken" mages is that Catarun broke the controls on magicians in a couple crucial ways.

Firstly, at some point, you lost the ability to attack sustained spells from the astral.  That's a big penalty simply gone from the world.  Now, there's no incentive against walking around with 20 spells stacked on you, other than terrifying an astral HTR scout.  Also, when grounding out was removed, it also allows the whole team to waltz around with the same magician with no fears.  These were instrumental controls for the GM to dissuade exactly the abuse people complain about.  Many was the game I would swat a player's spell lock if I could.  Grounding out a fireball into it only happened a couple times, but it was always in my arsenal.

Further, Catarun brought Anchoring in from the Metamagic section and made it a weaker version of sorcery, misnaming it alchemy instead (which was never what this type of item crafting was called).  This means you now have metamagic effects in beginner level games.  Stuff was gated the way it was for a reason, and balance was that reason.   

So "Magicrun" could be defined as the feeling of the game being too skewed to allow magical solutions to problems with no corresponding counter available.  Regardless of which ability you refer to, there is an issue here, and lack of counters is it.  If you have a counter to a problem, then you don't have a problem.  Sustained spells have no meaningful counter in the field.  Sure, a ward, or dispelling, but those are very different from needing to keep one eye in the astral to avoid being popped like a grape if you have a spell lock running.  Given that magic is largely supposed to be illegal, HTR should have spirits floating around and looking for magicians with stacks of spells glowing like a beacon, not unlike Convergence for deckers.  Then you have at least some counter.  If Big Matrix can read the tags on your underwear, then Big Magic surely wants to catch you before you try to fireball the Space Needle.  They can't be everywhere, but imagine a world with spirits manifesting out of nowhere, giving you the spectral eyeball, and then zooming off.  Terrifying, if played right.

Some of the problem of Magicrun is GMs who don't get creative enough stopping runaway casting.  Some of it is the system not providing easy answers for them to grab and run with.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Check out 6we's version of dispelling spells.  I don't see a team of shadowrunners walking around like astral christmas trees being a thing when astral security can just pick them off of you at no cost.  Oh, you shift to astral perception to see why your spells are dropping?  Boom, meet the astral mage's 3xMag in Force of Spirits to punish you for looking.

And of course, there's still Astral Barriers too to simply stop people from walking around with spells.

[GuardDuty]

Well, the thing to keep in mind about "Magicrun" and "broken" mages is that Catarun broke the controls on magicians in a couple crucial ways.

Firstly, at some point, you lost the ability to attack sustained spells from the astral.  That's a big penalty simply gone from the world.  Now, there's no incentive against walking around with 20 spells stacked on you, other than terrifying an astral HTR scout.  Also, when grounding out was removed, it also allows the whole team to waltz around with the same magician with no fears.  These were instrumental controls for the GM to dissuade exactly the abuse people complain about.  Many was the game I would swat a player's spell lock if I could.  Grounding out a fireball into it only happened a couple times, but it was always in my arsenal.

I believe that happened way back in 3rd Edition CRB, well before Catalyst had the rights.  Foci were still potential targets, but their wielders and sustained spells themselves were not targetable.