[Hobbes]

Negative attributes have never been a thing in Shadowrun to my knowledge.  Once it hits 0 it stays there AFAIK, just waiting for 5 Karma.

And per the discussion I had in the GM forms where I argued you should do steps in order, I was told I was wrong.  So, here we are.  Numbered steps doesn't mean you do them in order, it's a wacky world.

The "Do things in order" was an argument in 5th edition too, as was the hit 0 and bounce back during chargen, and Used Cultured Bioware.  You've got several threads from .... 2014? was it?  that you can recycle the arguments from.  Pick a side and bring up some Necro-threads if you'd like, I'm in a few of them and have no interest in replaying them. 

I personally welcome Errata or Missions FAQ that clean any of that up either way.  Until then, I roll with what I've got on the .PDF. 

[Michael Chandra]

Under that logic we can buy skills at 1 with karma and attributes from 1 to 2, THEN put points in. So I refuse to follow that. Could you link your source?

[Lormyr]

I believe Hobbes is referring to the discussion we had in the demo team thread titled "SR6 Qualities".

[Hobbes]

That's the one.

I'm a missions GM so everything goes through that filter.  "Up to the GM" is very bad for chargen in that filter.  Clear structure good.  Fuzzy GM adjudication bad.  I am totally indifferent to what is decided by the Missions team, as long as I can explain it to a player and that player gets a similar explanation from any other Missions GM.

I got no skin in the game as far as characters go.  It'll be a year or more before I see 6E Missions, much less run/play/make characters.

[Lormyr]

I pretty much agree with the caveat that it shouldn't fall on the Missions team to clarify rules that should have been more clearly phrased and/or conceived to begin with, but I digress. What the next (hopefully biggest and semi-final?) wave of errata looks like, and how long it takes them to get it out, will show us what to expect moving forward in all of product quality control, consideration to player feedback, and the future of this incarnation.

[penllawen]

Metatype   E   Troll 1
...
S   1   5
...
Impared Str 7      -56

Wow. Wow. Thanks, I hate this.

[Lormyr]

Metatype   E   Troll 1
...
S   1   5
...
Impared Str 7      -56

Wow. Wow. Thanks, I hate this.

Consequences of strength being a dump stat! In fairness, I think you will see this on logic and charisma a lot as well, but it won't be to such repulsion as this particular example.

[Michael Chandra]

That's the one.

So an topic under NDA which in fact never said chargen isn't in order but solely that step 3's karma balance carries over into step 4?! THAT is the base for claiming chargen is in any order?! Are you kidding me?!

No. No. Period. No. The ONLY conclusion you can draw from that discussion is that the intent is it's indeed NET bonus karma aka the difference, and that the difference carries into the customization phase. There is absolutely NOTHING there excusing disregarding the order of steps.

[penllawen]

In fairness, I think you will see this on logic and charisma a lot as well, but it won't be to such repulsion as this particular example.

Indeed, Hobbes's example is... well, not art exactly, but... y'know.

[Lormyr]

The ONLY conclusion you can draw from that discussion is that the intent is it's indeed NET bonus karma aka the difference, and that the difference carries into the customization phase. There is absolutely NOTHING there excusing disregarding the order of steps.

Look man, I do not agree with the position Hobbes argued from in that thread any more than you do. I think all of us (him included) understand what the intention was - but he was 100% correct that that is not what the section says.

The fact we have to use our experience/logic in order to surmise (again, I believe correctly) that the net bonus in fact a net bonus and does carry over is itself disregarding the steps order.

The language just needs cleared up to match the intent.

[Lormyr]

Indeed, Hobbes's example is... well, not art exactly, but... y'know.

Indeed!

I expect this edition will be rife with puny trolls who get a lot of karma for building through a glaring flaw in the system, as well as social pariah elf lepers of insert preferred ass-kicking method here.

Edit: And now I want to build a terrible toxic shaman elf leper named Uncle Badtouch. See what this system does to me!?

[Hobbes]

In fairness, I think you will see this on logic and charisma a lot as well, but it won't be to such repulsion as this particular example.

Indeed, Hobbes's example is... well, not art exactly, but... y'know.

Argument Absurdum is my go to jam. 

[penllawen]

I'm a missions GM so everything goes through that filter.  "Up to the GM" is very bad for chargen in that filter.  Clear structure good.  Fuzzy GM adjudication bad.  I am totally indifferent to what is decided by the Missions team, as long as I can explain it to a player and that player gets a similar explanation from any other Missions GM.

I was pondering this the other day. I've only ever played RPGs with a stable group of people I know, in which environment frequent handwaving, houseruling, and so on can be perfectly normal. But it must be a very different experience to run Missions or a Living Campaign game, where all the GMs have to be on the same page, and players vary from very roleplaying-focussed to min/maxers. Must be quite a challenge navigating fuzzy rules like this in that environment.

[Lormyr]

But it must be a very different experience to run Missions or a Living Campaign game, where all the GMs have to be on the same page

Compared to my other organized play experiences (Adventure League and Pathfinder), Missions GMs I've played with and seen have been much better at being on the same page. That said, you still get individual GMs who insist on doing stuff their way regardless of what the rules or errata/FAQ/clarification says. Some element of that is unavoidable simply due to the nature of people.

When I was playing my Missions Mystic Adept, I had more than a few GMs that initially refused to let me stack spells with adept powers. I was just fortunate enough to have Ray Rigel at the table, or near the table, when I played for him to set them straight when he was the Teutonic Overlord. <3 Ray.

[penllawen]

Compared to my other organized play experiences (Adventure League and Pathfinder), Missions GMs I've played with and seen have been much better at being on the same page.

Oh, I'm sure. All I'm saying is - that must take a significant amount of effort, both in prep and at the table. Kudos to them for being up for it