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[SR6] Why does Engineering cover Gunnery?

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Xenon

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« Reply #15 on: <07-30-19/0748:21> »
Riggers basically only need Pilot and Engineering.

Deckers basically only need Electronics and Cracking.

I like it.

Learning what is included in each skill will take a bit getting used to (for example that Forgery and Performance are part of the new Con skill while Leadership is part of the new Influence skill and Gunnery is part of the new Engineering skill).

penllawen

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« Reply #16 on: <07-30-19/0906:41> »
...for example that Forgery and Performance are part of the new Con skill while Leadership is part of the new Influence skill...
Wait, what? Why isn't Performance contained in Influence? That seems to fit better, based on the name alone...

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #17 on: <07-30-19/0947:25> »
Influence vs Acting were iirc the SR5 groups?
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Sphinx

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« Reply #18 on: <07-30-19/0956:51> »
Engineering should be the skill for "building and fixing stuff." I'd have put Gunnery into Firearms, the skill for "shooting stuff." But I doubt I'll care enough to house-rule it.

If it helps, I think of Con and Influence as Deception and Persuasion, respectively.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #19 on: <07-30-19/1014:41> »
No it's not. 'That's weird, rename would have been better' is fair. Making a mountain out of a molehill is anything but.

Might not be a mountain but im not sure it’s a mole hill. Unless you expect encyclopedic knowledge of the rules people will bump into this fairly frequently. Like I’d never have thought to look under con for forgery or writing a song or painting. So when someone asks how do they forge x document in game unless I remember it I’ll be looking through crap tons of rules to find it because it’s name does not lend me to think forgery. I honestly would have gone to engineering, and various computer skills long before con.

Then get into a missions game and last GM told you it was stealth to pick locks the next engineering.

Xenon

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« Reply #20 on: <07-30-19/1216:32> »
Condensing 80 skills into 18 mean a few skills will be harder to place than others.

Having said that. Firearms is the skill street samurai use to fire hands held weapons. Including, I'd imagine, bows, crossbows and heavy machine guns.

Engineering is the skill riggers use for anything drone and vehicle related (including firing drone mounted weapons, firing vehicle mounted weapons, sensor lock etc) that is not actually driving.

Con is a deceptive skill used by con artists for anything related to trickery and manipulation of individuals or an audience. Including Forgery, performance, seduction, fast talking, impersonation, disguise etc.

Influence, on the other hand, is the skill you use as a Corp exec or military leader. Someone with authority. Skills such as Leadership can be found here, but I'd imagine that we will also have Negotiation and Etiquette. Other likely candidates are Intimidate, Instruction and Animal Training.

I am guessing here so some of them might be wrong, but it kinda make sense. At least to me.

Typhus

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« Reply #21 on: <07-30-19/1220:25> »
I think so long as it's explained well enough in the CRB, it can be groked easily enough.  No visibility to that part makes it weird from orbit is all.  Glad folks here can speak to it.  Thanks!

Carmody

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« Reply #22 on: <07-31-19/0826:09> »
Engineering should be the skill for "building and fixing stuff." I'd have put Gunnery into Firearms, the skill for "shooting stuff." But I doubt I'll care enough to house-rule it.

To me Firearms works well for manually handled mounted weapons. But when we are talking about remote control weapons video-game skill seems the best fit  ;D . Joke aside, Engineering does not seem so strange to me.
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penllawen

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« Reply #23 on: <07-31-19/0904:37> »
To me Firearms works well for manually handled mounted weapons.
I've never entirely understood the use of Gunnery as it is in 5e, either from a verisimilitude or game design perspective. Why does firing a cupola-mounted machinegun use a different skill to firing a bipod-mounted one?

Out of curiosity, I checked my old books. 2e had a Gunnery skill that covered "the use of heavy weapons; whether on tripods, vehicle mounts, pintles, or fixed emplacements." It had specialisations in machine guns, missile/rocket launchers, assault cannons, and vehicle-mounted cannons.

Gunnery in 3e was similar 5e: it covered "all vehicle-mounted weapons, whether in mounts, pintles or turrets." But it also had Heavy Weapons, which covers "everything bigger than an assault rifle, including large weapons when they are mounted on tripods, pintles, gyro-mounts, or in fixed emplacements (but not in/on vehicles)."

I don't think using "engineering" to fire a remote controlled turret is any weirder than 3e was, at least. But I'd let (say) a Street Samurai hanging out of a window with a mounted gun use Firearms.

dezmont

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« Reply #24 on: <08-02-19/0021:54> »
No it's not. 'That's weird, rename would have been better' is fair. Making a mountain out of a molehill is anything but.

It isn't a mountain out of a molehill. Good conveyance and themeing is critical for making games cohesive and good. It is why games use shorthand based on your understanding of reality: "Of course my castles can't move, even though they have really high attack and defense stats" is helpful information that helps you learn rules faster and retain them. Games are complex and utilizing these tricks to help make information not just easy to remember but easy to instantly re-learn the second you hear the context is critical for speeding up table play. A big problem with say... 4e D&D or Anima wasn't their mechanics but the fact the mechanics sometimes had confusing concepts behind them (What is the difference between pushing, sliding, and moving, for example? Especially when you can 'push' someone CLOSER to you?) that made it harder to instantly recognize what the mechanics do. This isn't a trivial part of game design, WotC's MTG team basically spends half their time thinking about mechanical conveyance and it helps make one of the most complex TCGs to exist feel casual and accessible ("Of course that flying bird can fly over your non-flying creatures" sorta deal).  WHFRP 3e basically 100% failed based on this problem despite the dice system it used becoming very popular for FFG's other games. This stuff matters.

It isn't that this choice will RUIN 6e 5EVAHHH but a huge selling point of 6e was that it would be easier to understand while still feeling authentic and crunchy to the SR experience. This (and preformance being in con with the con skill named con) feels like a pretty clear failure, it is confusing and it definitely will make things harder to keep track of. "How good am I at shooting rifles? Well its a firearm so my firearm skill will tell me" is easy mental shorthand. "What do I do to play music well to get these guys on my side? Is it ettiquette, negotiaton? ...Con? Ok..." is definitely going to be a recurring issue. It is sloppy, and its totally legit to call it out as sloppy. Criticism about minor issues isn't automatically making a mountain out of a molehill. That is like... an important part of critical analysis; figuring out how the little details work and contribute to a design or artistic expression's ability to impact you in the way it wants to impact you.

Engineering should be the skill for "building and fixing stuff." I'd have put Gunnery into Firearms, the skill for "shooting stuff." But I doubt I'll care enough to house-rule it.

The intent almost certainly was to reduce the two 'remote, electronic aid' archetypes to only requiring 2 skills so that it is much easier for them to splash other skills. A big problem with 5e riggers was that they essentially replaced perception with EWAR, a firearms skill with gunnery, and then needed most of the samurai skill list anyway because of how things like vehicle stealth worked and how remotely picking locks or disabling security required lockpicking.

Merging gunnery with engineering does a few good things that makes it seem like an obviously good idea, ignoring the name. It means riggers now won't be outsourcing drone repair as a matter of course for a small fee and will always be capable of fixing their own stuff, which is good because it was thematically weird that engineering skills were so non-optimal in terms of cost to benefit, so now that you automatically get repair discounts with your gunnery skill you won't be leaning on contacts so hard. It also, obviously, reduces rigger skill crunch, which is good when riggers have such insane skill crunch. And it means anyone who splashes rigger for remote gunnery also will become able to tinker with their drones automatically, which, again, is thematically interesting. Sometimes *losing* the option to not be good at two different things at the same time is more interesting and leads to more interesting characters than subdividing skills super hard, because all that does is discourage anyone who would thematically use the sub-optimal divided out skill from existing. The fact that an optimal rigger would have no idea how their car worked because that was a wasted resource just wasn't interesting and was weird, and made it weird that you had to deliberately make your PC worse mechanically to make them more interesting.
« Last Edit: <08-02-19/0026:58> by dezmont »

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #25 on: <08-03-19/0855:19> »
Quote
Remember that specializations are GM approved... the examples given by the book aren't necessarily hardcoded.

Specializations aren't fixed to skills?  Is that a QSR rule or something we know for sure in the CRB?

The book says skills are not exhaustive and that players can develop specializations within a skill, so long as the GM approves.

Make a case for why your Engineering 0, Firearms 6 guy should be a le to have Gunnery as a specialization under Firearms.  I'd buy off on it.

Now, there's an argument to be made that you can't take a Spec that already exists and apply it to a different skill.  I don't see that explicitly stated, but it's a valid conclusion to draw.

So fine.  Your E0, F6 doesn't take Gunnery as a Firearms spec.  Instead he takes 'Manually Operated Mounted Firearms".  Done.
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #26 on: <08-03-19/0857:02> »
Incidentally the street sam can just grab a tripod, put their gun on and fire through a gun port and they're still using Firearms because the weapon isn't mounted, I think?
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Hobbes

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« Reply #27 on: <08-04-19/0617:39> »
Incidentally the street sam can just grab a tripod, put their gun on and fire through a gun port and they're still using Firearms because the weapon isn't mounted, I think?

Or just roll down the window. 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #28 on: <08-04-19/0624:50> »
Actually... An open event I ran 3 months ago went as followed:
- Face tried to seduce the 8 Ancients to have to pay less a bribe
- Dwarf Weapon Specialist put together her machine gun on the backseat
- Dwarf fired THROUGH the window
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