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When does the 6e NDA expire?

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adzling

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« Reply #15 on: <08-03-19/0002:11> »
Sooooooo are we now in the post-NDA era? Is anyone who's had access to the CRB (and isn't busy at GenCon, obv) willing to start fielding specific questions? Coz I have a list...

lay 'em down, we got answers..

adzling

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« Reply #16 on: <08-03-19/0004:54> »
after your minimum 1 shower a day)

haha i think you're over estimating that by a factor of 10.
Judging by the smell at any rate.

Typhus

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« Reply #17 on: <08-03-19/0128:26> »
Quote
lay 'em down, we got answers.

Starting Build Karma total?

Attribute increase multiplier?

Xenon

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« Reply #18 on: <08-03-19/0453:57> »
Is there a strength requirement to wield melee weapons?

If not, is there any other game mechanic we have not heard about yet that might encourage you to get some 3-4 strength if you have a focus on melee weapons...?

penllawen

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« Reply #19 on: <08-03-19/0517:12> »
lay 'em down, we got answers..
Yay! Here's what I've had on my mind:

1) role of Strength for melee characters?
- attack rating?
- minimum for various weapons?
- unarmed damage?
- used for any skill Dice Pools?
- can picking up a melee weapon make you do less damage?

2) role of armour
- anything beyond Edge calculation?
- Hardened armour? Autosoak hits?

3) Edge earned per round/turn/action limit stuff

4) action economy
- range of minor actions? How useful are they?
- options for non-Samurai to get initiative boosts?  How distinct are chromed/physad warriors from other archetypes?

5) NPCs and Edge
- how do they earn / spend it
- for mobs and for discrete NPCs

6) number of skills?
- is it really down below 20?

7) chargen metahuman builds
- how do special attribute points work anyway?

8) chargen priority E to Attributes
- is it really a “trap”?
- what is baseline human stat? Is it 2 now?

9) what does a Vehicle Control Rig do now?

10) fire modes, how do they work?
- QSR only has SS/SA/BF

11) lethality, relative and absolute
- eg troll bow vs assault cannon
- what’s the likelihood of a heavy pistol one-shot-kill?

12) is vehicle damage/repair still very expensive?

13) grenades/explosive - anything to mitigate what looks like very high lethality?

Xenon

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« Reply #20 on: <08-03-19/0543:49> »
Quote from: penllawen link=topic=29682.msg520782#msg520782
1) role of Strength for melee characters?
- attack rating?
- unarmed damage?


I can answer parts of it:


Attack Rating for Unarmed = Strength + Reaction
Damage Value for Unarmed = Strength / 2 (round up)

Damage Value for Unarmed can also be increased by +1 or +2 by using Bone Lacing or Bone Density.

Attack Rating for Thrown grenades: Strength + Reaction / Strength + Reaction - 2 / Strength + Reaction - 6 / 0 / 0

Rating of Bow (which is used for Damage Value and Attack Rating) is derived by Strength (also Throwing Weapons??)

Max carry is also derived from Strength.



Augmented Unarmed Trolls will deal a lot of damage in this edition (think Hulk).

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: <08-03-19/0652:10> »
Honestly I still don't know how far the NDA is lifted now, given how the book itself only is out to those who bought it at GenCon, so I definitely won't throw in rule-quotes with page references yet but I can answer some stuff. (To be honest, I don't really feel like it because some of these questions sound extremely leading.)

> role of Strength for melee characters?
It's used in your Unarmed Attack Rating and Unarmed damage. Features in grappling. Plays a role in Athletics sometimes. Threshold for the Edge action Wrest, which is a cheap Edge action you can take after succesfully Blocking a melee attack. You also use a Strength test when using for example an axe to try to cut through a wall, to increase the DV for comparison. And of course you use Strength in several resist-restraining spells/powers. Bows need Strength for their Rating, which determines their DV. Medium Machine Guns need 2+ Strength, Heavy 5+.

(Also: Lifting now is S*S*10, so high-Strength characters are now much better at lifting stuff.)

And yes, if your Unarmed Combat Damage is heavy, e.g. 8 for an X(11) bone-augmented Troll, then using any sort of weapon will mean you do less damage. Because even the Panther XXL only does 7P base.

> role of armour
Armor has a Defense Boost and Capacity for mods. Hardened Armor gives autohits equal to its rating, which is being discussed regarding game balance but fell outside of the scope of Hotfix errata.

> Edge earned per round/turn/action limit stuff
- You can earn 2 Edge max per Round
- You can spend Edge once per Action
- When spending Edge, you can use a boost multiple times, e.g. spend 3 Edge to reroll 3 of your opponent's dice

> action economy
Drugs, spells, adept powers, augmentations all still exist. HotSim got nerfed to 3d6 Initiative, meaning Matrix people face a tough choice between 2 Majors and 1 Major with 4 Minors.
There are a lot of Minor Actions. Plenty of useful ones. As to what you consider useful, I have no idea. Some people will complain, others will love the toybox.

> NPCs and Edge
They earn it the same way anyone else does. An entire set of Enemies may spend Edge only once per turn. So if you face 8 gangbangers and they split into 2 groups of 4 when attacking you, these two groups combined can spend Edge exactly once per turn.
The initial Edge value equals the Professional Rating, which ranges from 0 to 10. If you have a Prime Runner, they are like players so with individual Edge stats and gain individually as well. On top of that, a Prime Runner can freely steal Edge from his Professional Rating Grunt minions.

> number of skills?
19. And plenty of skills you'll never touch, of course.
Magic: Astral, Conjuring, Enchanting, Sorcery
Matrix: Cracking, Electronics, Tasking
Specialist: Biotech, Engineering, Outdoors
Social: Con, Influence
Combat: Athletics, Close Combat, Firearms, Exotic Weapons
Other: Perception, Piloting, Stealth

> chargen metahuman builds
You can put SAPs into the Special Attributes and into your Racial Attributes, aka the Attributes where your Race has a maximum above 6. So Dwarf Body/Strength/Willpower, Elf Agility/Charisma, Ork/Troll Body/Strength.

> chargen priority E to Attributes
"Trap" is a leading phrase. Posts were VERY clear about it: There's builds possible with it that some people may consider viable. Personal preferences heavily apply. As for baseline human stat: That is not named. But only at PR 3+ do you get above average 2.125, Thugs-Gangers are all average 1.875-2.125, so pretty much 2 as baseline.

> what does a Vehicle Control Rig do now?
Lets you jump in. Gives you a dicepool bonus to all jumped-in action stuff. Gives you a point of Edge on that shit. Exact details are in the book.

> fire modes, how do they work?
SS normal, SA and BF give an AR penalty for DV bonus. BF can also use Multiple Attacks and target 2 people with a split dicepool instead. FA can split dicepool into X attacks, which may be partially same person, doesn't use Multiple Attacks so unlike BF an FA-attack can NOT use Anticipation Edge Action.

> lethality, relative and absolute
Leading question. A Troll can at max reach Panther damage. As for one-shot-kills: I'm not pulling out statistics when everyone can run math. If you want super-lethality, play with "Here comes the Reaper" rules.

> is vehicle damage/repair still very expensive?
No costs are described, so up to the GM what the "needed parts" will cost you. It's simply a really lengthy process if the damage is massive: Damage-type modifies the interval, NOT the threshold.

> grenades/explosive - anything to mitigate what looks like very high lethality?
Don't run around like crazy so you can still run around, or simply involve any kind of tactical moves that will prevent you from being torn apart by grenades.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #22 on: <08-03-19/0710:09> »
On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #23 on: <08-03-19/0732:03> »
On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
Oh, didn't see that one coming. But that is actually pretty nice. As a general rule you don't want to run too low strength then, but you also don't need to over-commit - unless you also focus on unarmed combat (or bows or throwing weapons). So a street samurai can for example go for 3-4 strength and still benefit by switching to his katana during close encounters. I approve.

penllawen

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« Reply #24 on: <08-03-19/0749:50> »
On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
Oh wow, I love this! I assume also for a melee character attacking someone with a ranged weapon, of course? "I'll take that gun, thanks. POW!"

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #25 on: <08-03-19/0750:55> »
On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
Oh thank Saeletra someone who says MC. Too many people call me Chandra. O_O
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

penllawen

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« Reply #26 on: <08-03-19/0751:09> »
(To be honest, I don't really feel like it because some of these questions sound extremely leading.)
Oh, sorry! Not my intention at all. Apologies.

(I'll read the rest of your post when I have time to absorb it. Thank you for the thorough reply.)

penllawen

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« Reply #27 on: <08-03-19/0757:51> »
Context: 4/5ths of my table are at a barbecue right now, we're gossiping about the post above. We're pretty excited, especially my troll melee monster player!

Finstersang

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« Reply #28 on: <08-03-19/0934:00> »
Honestly I still don't know how far the NDA is lifted now, given how the book itself only is out to those who bought it at GenCon, so I definitely won't throw in rule-quotes with page references yet but I can answer some stuff. (To be honest, I don't really feel like it because some of these questions sound extremely leading.)

First of all: Thanks  ;D

> role of Strength for melee characters?
It's used in your Unarmed Attack Rating and Unarmed damage. Features in grappling. Plays a role in Athletics sometimes. Threshold for the Edge action Wrest, which is a cheap Edge action you can take after succesfully Blocking a melee attack. You also use a Strength test when using for example an axe to try to cut through a wall, to increase the DV for comparison. And of course you use Strength in several resist-restraining spells/powers. Bows need Strength for their Rating, which determines their DV. Medium Machine Guns need 2+ Strength, Heavy 5+.

(Also: Lifting now is S*S*10, so high-Strength characters are now much better at lifting stuff.)

And yes, if your Unarmed Combat Damage is heavy, e.g. 8 for an X(11) bone-augmented Troll, then using any sort of weapon will mean you do less damage. Because even the Panther XXL only does 7P base.


Not too bad, apart from the last paragraph. The fact that unarmed melee can stack so high is one thing (after all, that DS doesnīt necessarily reflect the damage of a single punch. And also, HULK SMASH!), but the fact that it makes armed melee pointless for high-strenght characters is something that should be looked into - if not by some kind of hotfix, then at least in the Combat supplement.

(I may already have a kind of a measured houserule for this. Iīll see if its viable when I have a look at the full ruleset...)

> role of armour
Armor has a Defense Boost and Capacity for mods. Hardened Armor gives autohits equal to its rating, which is being discussed regarding game balance but fell outside of the scope of Hotfix errata.


I suspect that Hardened Armor = Spirit and Dragonscale armor (at least for now)?

Yeah that should definitely be discussed then. I just hope that discussion is about on how to fix this and not about the question if its balanced in the first place :P

Iīd say just add the rating to the soak roll, like old-school armor in the previous Editions. With the overall lowered damage codes, that should already be worth a lot. Or itīs just half the rating in Autohits, like in 5th Edition. But the full value in Autohits? O. Boi.

> Edge earned per round/turn/action limit stuff
- You can earn 2 Edge max per Round
- You can spend Edge once per Action
- When spending Edge, you can use a boost multiple times, e.g. spend 3 Edge to reroll 3 of your opponent's dice


I think Iīve already voiced my oppinion on the 2-Edge-per-round limit more than enough. It remains to be seen how often this limit applies in a real session, though. For the record: If When I try SR6 for the first time, I will houserules this right away; but Iīll keep track on how much Edge would have gone to waste if I actually applied this limit :P

Thanks for the errata and clarification on the other stuff. An RAI limit on Edge uses per round would have been just as bad the gain limit.

> action economy
Drugs, spells, adept powers, augmentations all still exist. HotSim got nerfed to 3d6 Initiative, meaning Matrix people face a tough choice between 2 Majors and 1 Major with 4 Minors.
There are a lot of Minor Actions. Plenty of useful ones. As to what you consider useful, I have no idea. Some people will complain, others will love the toybox.


This one sounds really good to me so far. I can understand when some people miss the multiple passes from SR4 and SR5, but for me as a >90% GM, it was just too cumbersome hard to keep everyone engaged when the Initiative-Monsters played out their 1-2 additional turns.

> NPCs and Edge
They earn it the same way anyone else does. An entire set of Enemies may spend Edge only once per turn. So if you face 8 gangbangers and they split into 2 groups of 4 when attacking you, these two groups combined can spend Edge exactly once per turn.
The initial Edge value equals the Professional Rating, which ranges from 0 to 10. If you have a Prime Runner, they are like players so with individual Edge stats and gain individually as well. On top of that, a Prime Runner can freely steal Edge from his Professional Rating Grunt minions.


Wait, there is still a limit on Edge uses per round, but for a whole group of Grunts? Or am just falling victim to the olīturn VS round confusion myself now?  ::) So how does the Edge gain limit work for grunts? Is there one?

> number of skills?
19. And plenty of skills you'll never touch, of course.
Magic: Astral, Conjuring, Enchanting, Sorcery
Matrix: Cracking, Electronics, Tasking
Specialist: Biotech, Engineering, Outdoors
Social: Con, Influence
Combat: Athletics, Close Combat, Firearms, Exotic Weapons
Other: Perception, Piloting, Stealth


I wonder where Intimidation is housed now? Influence?

> chargen metahuman builds
You can put SAPs into the Special Attributes and into your Racial Attributes, aka the Attributes where your Race has a maximum above 6. So Dwarf Body/Strength/Willpower, Elf Agility/Charisma, Ork/Troll Body/Strength.

> chargen priority E to Attributes
"Trap" is a leading phrase. Posts were VERY clear about it: There's builds possible with it that some people may consider viable. Personal preferences heavily apply. As for baseline human stat: That is not named. But only at PR 3+ do you get above average 2.125, Thugs-Gangers are all average 1.875-2.125, so pretty much 2 as baseline.


It remains to be seen what can build using the Attr. A or B can be viable.
But if it really turns out to be a "trap": Well... Donīt fall in it, I guess?  ???

> lethality, relative and absolute
Leading question. A Troll can at max reach Panther damage. As for one-shot-kills: I'm not pulling out statistics when everyone can run math. If you want super-lethality, play with "Here comes the Reaper" rules.


One of my biggest concerns with the lethality is the viability of quick takedowns, which are important for stealth missions. If its next to impossible in to silently take a guard out with one (or max. two) attacks, mirrorshade espionage missions will have a hard standing without houserules or GM handwaving.

The Errata sheets mentions a Knockout Blow Action as an Edge use. I presume that this is already meant as one answer to this problem?

> is vehicle damage/repair still very expensive?
No costs are described, so up to the GM what the "needed parts" will cost you. It's simply a really lengthy process if the damage is massive: Damage-type modifies the interval, NOT the threshold.

> grenades/explosive - anything to mitigate what looks like very high lethality?
Don't run around like crazy so you can still run around, or simply involve any kind of tactical moves that will prevent you from being torn apart by grenades.

Silly silly Grenades. Itīs a tough thing. With a realistic DS, they are too strong and with a more balanced DS, they are not realistic.

I donīt know how armor comes into play when defending against grenades. I guess you still soak the blast with body only? Maybe thatīs a good start for troubleshooting once the laments about the new explosive meta start to swell: Just add the armor score to the soak roll against explosives. It would make a lot of sense: With the new 6th Edition armor mechanic alone, armor will likely contribute even less to your survivability against explosions and shrapnell than it would against conventional attacks. In reality, itīs the other way around (at least to my humble knowledge).
« Last Edit: <08-03-19/0941:24> by Finstersang »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #29 on: <08-03-19/0957:49> »
On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
That’s not a positive to me. Outside of surprise no combat actions should be unopposed.