[Lipe82]

Hey chummers, quick question about Armor, as its writing is rather confusing.
Please confirm if this is how it should work:

Basic armor is 9 circles; I get that.
Heavy Armor is 12 circles, and places a -1 modifier to ALL your skills.
Light Armor is 6 circles and adds a D6 to ONE SINGLE SKILL (to be defined by Player/GM into something that makes sense).

Also - is that a general rule? Or those are not modifiers but actualy Skill Points that you gain/lose during character creation?

Thanks in advance.

[Carmody]

That's not how it works.
In fact the +/-1 to skill is only a balancing tool during character creation.
If you decide to start the game with a heavier armor, then you get one less skill point to compensate, at character creation.
On the other side, if you decide to go with a light armor, then you get one extra skill point to compensate, at character creation.

As it is only meant to balance the characters, there is no need for the extra point to be related to the armor.

Furthermore, if you decide for a given scene (eg. jet set gathering) not to wear your armor, you get no bonus for that (well, except the fact that people will consider you as a guest and not a bodyguard ;-) )

[Lipe82]

Awesome, many thanks!

[Tecumseh]

Some alternative armor ideas.

Background: I'm not thrilled with Armor acting as additional hit points in Anarchy. Not only is it unrealistic, it also slows down gameplay because each and every armored goon is going to need 3+ attacks to chew up their armor and then their damage track.

Method 1 - Roll soak
Idea: The SR4-5 method. Roll Strength + Armor. Remaining damage goes to the condition monitor.
Pros: Established, reasonably balanced. One-shots potentially possible due to bad soak rolling.
Cons: Separate dodge and soak rolls = more rolling.

Method 2 - Armor auto-soaks
Idea: Armor soaks hits at a 3:1 ratio with no rolling. Armor rating 12 is now effectively Armor 4. Optional: armor degrades 1 point after each Physical (not Stun) attack until repaired.
Example: Armor 12 would now auto-soak 4 hits the first attack, 3 hits the second attack, 2 hits the third attack, then 1 hit the last attack. The remaining damage goes to the condition monitor.
Pros: Maintains the idea of armor degrading. Motivation to spend plot points on armor repair. No additional rolling required. Similar to the SR1-3 approach.
Cons: No opportunity to one-shot an opponent. Stacked auto-soaking could lead someone to be impervious (see Chrome Bison, p. 91, who would auto-soak 9 boxes per attack).

Method 3 - All attacks assumed to have Armor Avoidance
Idea: Base damage goes to armor, net hits go directly to damage track.
Pros: Established precedent. Getting wounds on the damage track will lead to negative modifiers sooner, which could then help end battles faster. The least invasive/radical change.
Cons: Invalidates the AA benefits of attacks that currently have it. One-shots are still impossible. Preserves some of the unrealistic ways that armor would degrade after meaningless attacks. (Twelve punches from Granny still wipe out your milspec suit.)

Method 4 - Armor adds to your dodge pool at a 3:1 ratio
Idea: You roll dodge + armor dice. Armor no longer soaks.
Pros: No additional rolling.
Cons: Makes dodging all but mandatory. That removes any gradation between "uninjured" and "almost dead".

Method 5 - Compare net hits on the attack vs. dodge and armor separately (but simultaneously)
Idea: Roll dice for dodge and armor at the same time. The results determine whether the damage goes to the armor or to the condition monitor.
• If attack hits > dodge hits + armor hits, then armor doesn't soak and the damage goes straight to the condition monitor.
• If attack hits > dodge hits but < dodge hits + armor hits then armor soaks.
• If attack hits < dodge hits then attack misses.
Pros: Potential for one-shots vs. bad dodge/armor rolls. Realistic that most attacks would hit full body armor.
Cons: More rolling. Much more mental math to figure out where the attack connects. On average, most attacks will hit armor, so this is no faster than the current system.

Fully open to other ideas and feedback.

[DarkEnergy]

Tecumseh,

I had an idea similar to your #4:

1.  Keep the Armor points.
2.  Armor adds +1/+2/+3 to defense for light/medium/heavy armor.
3.  Armor still provides the defense bonus even when all the armor points are gone.

I say "defense" because I would allow the player to roll the armor dice even if they couldn't dodge for some reason.  Armor still provides a benefit even when all the armor points were gone.

I only tried one session using that rule before the game broke up, but it seemed ok.

[Tecumseh]

So, if I'm understanding things correctly, in this proposal armor works the way it does now but with the added dodging benefit?

It's not a bad idea but it's somewhat counter to my goal. My problem is usually, "This guy has 11 boxes on his condition monitor and 9 boxes on his armor so he's not going down until I deal 20 boxes of damage", which takes a long time, especially if there's a horde of grunts.

I still haven't found my perfect balance. One thing I've been doing, which is similar to my #3 option, is to allow players to spend a plot point to grant their attacks Armor Avoidance. Even if it doesn't allow for one-shots, it gives me better cover (as the GM) to have the weak-willed grunts retreat when they have 3-4 boxes of damage, which can now happen after one or two hits rather than needing to wait until their 9 boxes of armor are wiped out first.

[DarkEnergy]

Oh, I noticed the combat drag due to NPC armor points as well. 

I am going to try giving only major/boss NPCs armor points.  Minions don't get armor points; just their condition monitor and the bonus defense dice.

[zellak]

I found the same problem with SRA, having to grind down the armour rating in a firefight is not a great system.

My houserule is that when the target is hit, make an armour save ;  roll 1d6

Business clothes  6
Armour clothing   6
Synthleather Jacket 6

Armour Vest  5+

Lined coat 4+

Armour Jacket 3+

Body Armour   2+

If you fail the save the damage goes straight to the CDM.

Its an extra die roll....but speeds combat against low armoured goons.

[Tecumseh]

That's an interesting idea.

I would probably boost the clothes/synthleather category to 5+, then move armored vest to 4+. Vests and lined coats usually have the same armor rating, which is true in 5E, 6E, and Anarchy. (They were slightly different in 1-4E but in the same ballpark.)

[zellak]

The last edition i played before SRA was 3rd.....

Also i am not happy with the firearms defence and was thinking of changing it to Agility + cover  ( light cover +2 / heavy cover +4 ).....i am planning on playtesting a firefight solo to see how bad this really is. 

Agility + Logic seems wrong somehow.

[adambeyoncelowe]

The last edition i played before SRA was 3rd.....

Also i am not happy with the firearms defence and was thinking of changing it to Agility + cover  ( light cover +2 / heavy cover +4 ).....i am planning on playtesting a firefight solo to see how bad this really is. 

Agility + Logic seems wrong somehow.

I had that reaction too, but it's because Logic encompasses Intuition now, while Agility already encompasses Reaction. So think of it as Agility + Intuition instead, if that helps.

Because the rules are close enough to SR4-5, our prior expectations can get in the way (but you get used to it with time, too). It's like the uncanny valley of RPG crunch.

At our table, I also rule that you can roll your melee combat pool as a parry/block or perhaps even another dice pool if it makes sense. E.g., Agility + Athletics might work. That works well so far.

Back to the topic at hand, one alternative rule to deal with armour is this:

1. Defenders don't roll for defence. The threshold for any attack is (opponent's ([AGI + LOG]/3). If the attacker meets it, they hit. Net hits add extra damage as usual.
2. The target rolls STR + Armour as Damage Reduction. A glitch reduces the target's armour by one.
3. Modified DV - DR hits get applied to the relevant Condition Monitor.

Really, there's only one of two ways I'd do it: roll DR or roll defence, but never both. Whichever pool you're not rolling gets divided by 3 instead.

If you wanted, you could even give the target the choice of whether to roll defence or soak on each attack. That gives you more tactical choice but could hold things up if people are indecisive.

That said, we've not had any issue with armour as extra circles so far. In most cases, players start panicking when they take any amount of armour damage, because they know it'll be their Condition Monitor next, so they're encouraged to speed things up.

And NPCs can just surrender or flee when the GM feels like it -- they don't need to fight to the death, which would be far more unrealistic in most cases than ablative armour anyway.

The rules already have ways to speed up combat -- such as doubling DVs across the board, which is lethal but very fast. With Plot Points and Edge, you don't need to worry about TPKs too much, either.

But the good thing about Anarchy is that you can mix it up and try new things, so go nuts!

[Lipe82]

Sorry to necropost, but I have been preparing a game recently and this post came to mind.

On top of all the cool suggestions in this thread, I did think about...

Some alternative armor ideas.

IDEA: Armor reduces DAMAGE CODE.
LOGIC: Armor protects against the gun, leaving the bulk of damage to the attacker's talent.
It's basically an auto-soak, but net successes would dictate how strong the attack was instead of gunpower alone.
Initially I thought Light 2, Medium 3, Heavy 4; so an Ares Predator (6P) would deal 4P, 3P or 2P respectively (plus net successes as usual), applied straight into the CM.
ARMOR DAMAGE: upon P hit, target rolls a glitch die; glitch means the armor became one grade lower, until broken/fubar; ignore Armor hitboxes completely.

Less bookkeeping, no extra rolls, combat favors attack over defence. May need to adjust armor values.
All feedback is most welcome.

[Tecumseh]

Ha, I've been rereading this thread too. I joined an Anarchy game in mid-February and I found myself revisiting this to remind myself what I used to know/think. The game only lasted a month, as generally happens.

Yes, what you're describing is pretty much the same as my Method #2.

The one thing I debate is the best armor:soak ratio. I suggested 3:1, which is what you have here. I can think of arguments for other ratios, but I suppose a lot of it comes down to personal preference about how effective you want armor to be and what sort of balance you like to maintain between offense and defense.

Another possibility is to borrow an idea from 4E and have there be a comparison between the armor rating and the base weapon damage to determine whether the resulting damage is Stun or Physical. Right now in Anarchy all damage erodes armor equally, and after the armor is gone the damage goes to the appropriate Condition Monitor. 

For example, what if we say Light 4, Medium 6, Heavy 8. Then compare those armor ratings to the base weapon damage (before net hits). If the Armor is equal to the incoming damage rating, it converts it from Physical to Stun. That means Light armor will mostly be to defend against melee attacks, while Medium armor could stop pistols, and Heavy armor could soak an assault rifle but not a sniper rifle. Damage could be based on net hits and go straight to the condition monitor determined by the comparison. So you're still getting hit, and you're still taking damage, but maybe a less-lethal type of damage that's easier to endure. Or add net hits to the comparison if you want more Physical damage to encourage folks to retreat more quickly.

Just spitballing.

[Lipe82]

I guess the only slightly different aspect here would be the actual ratings.

I don't like the idea of someone willingly striding under heavy fire like they're Black Panther impervious (or Chrome Bison impervious). The idea of glitch die on hit degrading the type of armor also makes it less safe.

On another topic, but for this same game - I've been trying to think ways to make do with less rolling. I already use target hits instead of contested roll against the player's pool on skills; I'm trying to figure out a way to make defense a static number you need to beat as well. Maybe that deserves its own post.