[mcv]

Your extra passes often had little to no value, while extra actions are always useful.

I don't understand how you mean this. Extra passes provide extra actions, surely that's useful? But in 3e and 5e, they only provide those extra actions after everybody else had a chance to do something. In 6e, like in 2e, they get the extra actions before everybody else does.

And the worst you can get is 1 extra Major if you have enough base dice.

That's another thing: it becomes predictable, just like it was in 4e. I like the idea that you can get lucky or unlucky about how many passes you get.

So it avoids a few problems of SR2 and SR4/5.

I'm fine with reducing the impact of high initiative, but it feels to me like this change throws away one of the most defining aspects of the Shadowrun system.

Plus your roll won't cost you extra actions.

What do you mean? Is there a roll that would otherwise cost you extra actions?

It also solves Movement and Suppressive Fire wonkyness with multiple passes.

I'll grant you that. It's certainly a lot easier.

[Michael Chandra]

Your extra passes often had little to no value, while extra actions are always useful.

I don't understand how you mean this. Extra passes provide extra actions, surely that's useful?

You said you worry about Street Sams being nerfed because they get less actions. But the extra Passes in 5e often happened after most of a fight was already settled. So usually, they did not have much of an added value. Now you get more tactical options instead.

As for the roll: In 5e, if you rolled poorly, you'd lose out on an extra pass. In 6e, your actions are based on dice, not on the roll.

[mcv]

You said you worry about Street Sams being nerfed because they get less actions. But the extra Passes in 5e often happened after most of a fight was already settled. So usually, they did not have much of an added value. Now you get more tactical options instead.

I don't worry about nerfing street sams, I worry about them getting all their extra actions before anyone else has the chance to act. Though I admit that problem is less severe if they can only get one extra attack.

How long the fight lasts depends a lot on the nature of the fight. Open shooting at short range is over in seconds, but when there's more cover and moving around, it can last a lot longer. I suppose the question is whether street sams should shine more in prolonged combat or in really short fights.

As for the roll: In 5e, if you rolled poorly, you'd lose out on an extra pass. In 6e, your actions are based on dice, not on the roll.

I see it the other way around: if you roll well, you get an extra pass. But you don't always get it; it adds a level of unpredictability and excitement, in my opinion. If that's not what people want, why were the predictable initiative passes of 4e rolled back? (From what I remember, the 5e initiative system is practically identical to the one from 3e.)

[PiXeL01]

In 5e combat rarely made it past the second phase, so Street sams just got to go first.
I thought it was a need too at first, but with combat being deadlier now with armor not soaking damage they probably won’t need the extra phases.
But to be honest I think 3e/5e’s initiative system was the best so far

[Shinobi Killfist]

In 5e combat rarely made it past the second phase, so Street sams just got to go first.
I thought it was a need too at first, but with combat being deadlier now with armor not soaking damage they probably won’t need the extra phases.
But to be honest I think 3e/5e’s initiative system was the best so far

I guess people design fights differently than I do.  But in my games, fights almost always take multiple combat turns.

I'm worried about the math on this and the soak rolls.

On this side 4 minors to one major means you need wired 2 to get 2 majors.  This can get bad especially without free actions, but I assume you need to draw a gun(major normally, minor with a quick draw), maybe move a bit, grab cover etc.  So really you just have 1 major which a unaugmented nobody has as well, which seems like a really crappy use of essence and money.  Mage with his zippy spell at least takes the draw gun aspect out of the equation and has a better chance to go straight to attacking.

Soak rolls sounded okay at first with the Ares predator doing 3, but if an assault rifle does 5 and 7 or 8 with a burst(apparently more than a assault cannon lame) it doesn't take many net hits to get you to 10 boxes.  Rolling 3 dice means a lot of one shot kills by taking the fairly easy action burst fire. And it kind of doesn't matter how experienced you are, not that I foresee people getting experienced. It feels like the GM is going to have to constantly make bad decisions for the opposition in order for the PCs to survive. Sure I could do auto fire but bullets cost money so we are under orders to only use single shot.

The math on the surface seems really bad.

[Redwulfe]

I am not sure I have a problem with the initiative system as of yet. If the minor actions are worth doing then having a lot of them becomes a meaningful choice. If they're not useful then anything short of having 4 to get your second major will be a waste. Overall the concept is fine with me currently.

In early editions, we had the problem of a sam taking 3-4 actions before anyone else could go basically stealing actions from others who would often not even get a single action in combat. Then it changed to where the extra action came after everyone had a chance to go and we then had wasted actions as the combat would be over before the character could use the actions he paid to get. In this system, it seems to be trying to get you somewhere in the middle. I want to have a high enough initiative to go first because that, in my mind, is one of the benefits of playing a Sam. but since I can only get a max of 2 major actions I am not stealing actions from others like in early editions.

All in all, I just hope that we have meaningful minor actions so it seems like we have a choice to do those overtaking the extra major action and giving those how only want a minor boost of +1 or +2 initiative dice things to do with them so they are not wasting actions. In the Actual play, it seemed like there was not a lot of minors for the decker to do so he chose to not go VR because he would be wasting actions and there was no point. This tells me that the minor action may not be meaningful enough and that is the only thing I am worried about in the system but I will have to wait to see more when the rules drop for the rest of us.

On another note, the Rules PDFs should be released by now. Having a small group of people trying to figure out the rules while the rest of us take the rules out of context with limited information is not good for the moral of the community. Instead, put the rules up for sale and start making money on the edition. this will not change the number of sales of core books and PDFs that you will sell and those who only buy PDF will do just that and those who want a printed core book will still buy that.

Releasing now also has the benefit of everyone now figuring the rules out and finding errata to get ahead of the errata game. That's just my 2 cents.

[Banshee]

I think you will find it ok, there are 22 universal minor actions, 12 of which are actions that will most useful for the combat focus types (ie street sams)

During playtesting I found with my group that yes it nerfs the swired street sams a bit on the offense but offers a good bit of tactical choices. For example the runner with 4 minor actions can move, take aim, actively dodge, and attack multiple targets or other combinations

[Michael Chandra]

Product announcement should happen today, but I recall QSR is planned for June and 6e for August. I'm going to assume the print runs are already ongoing so errata now is too late for first printing, however they do have an errata process ready to go so the delay won't be as bad as with 5e.

Banshee, does Full Defense still exist? Is it a Minor or a Major? *puppy-eyes to get spoilers*

[Banshee]

yes Full Defense still exist but it is a major action but there are multiple minor interrupt type actions that can be used defensively including some counterattack options ... I just can't post the exact details here

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think you will find it ok, there are 22 universal minor actions, 12 of which are actions that will most useful for the combat focus types (ie street sams)

During playtesting I found with my group that yes it nerfs the swired street sams a bit on the offense but offers a good bit of tactical choices. For example the runner with 4 minor actions can move, take aim, actively dodge, and attack multiple targets or other combinations

I'll wait and see, but even a minor nerf for sams seems bad to me. As is in 5E, they barley shown in their field outside a couple very specific builds.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I am not sure I have a problem with the initiative system as of yet. If the minor actions are worth doing then having a lot of them becomes a meaningful choice. If they're not useful then anything short of having 4 to get your second major will be a waste. Overall the concept is fine with me currently.

I have some serious thematic issues with it at the very least, it may work mechanically.  But without wired people feeling wired, is it shadowrun?

[mcv]

In 5e combat rarely made it past the second phase, so Street sams just got to go first.
I thought it was a need too at first, but with combat being deadlier now with armor not soaking damage they probably won’t need the extra phases.
But to be honest I think 3e/5e’s initiative system was the best so far

I guess people design fights differently than I do.  But in my games, fights almost always take multiple combat turns.

I suspect it's largely a matter of play style and type of encounter. If it's just open, little cover, heavy weapons, and little else to do than kill the other guy, then fights are over within seconds, which is realistic. When it's a more tactical fight, with lots of cover, darkness, no idea how many enemies there are, sneaking around, looking for them, taking a good position and that sort of thing, it obviously takes a lot longer.

I think you will find it ok, there are 22 universal minor actions, 12 of which are actions that will most useful for the combat focus types (ie street sams)

During playtesting I found with my group that yes it nerfs the swired street sams a bit on the offense but offers a good bit of tactical choices. For example the runner with 4 minor actions can move, take aim, actively dodge, and attack multiple targets or other combinations

Using more minor actions might actually be a good thing. Too often the focus seems to be on just putting as much lead in the air as possible, and people find they lack sufficient actions to also take cover. So I guess wired street sams will be able to do both while others have to choose whether they want to take cover or aim before they shoot.

Although if everybody has at least a major and two minor actions, that's already more generous than the current complex or two simple actions.

I have some serious thematic issues with it at the very least, it may work mechanically.  But without wired people feeling wired, is it shadowrun?

Well put. I think that's my main concern about this change.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I am not sure I have a problem with the initiative system as of yet. If the minor actions are worth doing then having a lot of them becomes a meaningful choice. If they're not useful then anything short of having 4 to get your second major will be a waste. Overall the concept is fine with me currently.

I have some serious thematic issues with it at the very least, it may work mechanically.  But without wired people feeling wired, is it shadowrun?

A subtle but important point is that Free actions are gone. All the little stuff costs one of your finite actions.  Having lots of non-attack actions even if you only have one attack action is an advantage that's easy to overlook.

Sure, there's no getting around that the initiative-jackers will get less attacks per combat turn.  But I agree with the others who argued upthread that even though they suffer, they don't really suffer *much* and it's all for the betterment of the game.  Ever complain about the decker taking too long to hack? the Sammie resolving his third, fourth, and fifth passes before anyone else gets to do anything is the same thing.

[Marcus]

So going to a maximum of two attacks from a system that generally started with at least 2 is a huge loss, combined with the loss of free actions and 6e appears to be a disaster for pc action economy, and believe me those who will suffer most from this will not be the “initiative jacker”. Try to put a good face on it however you like, but claiming that 6e is “7.5 crunch” and then saying we are specifically fighting min/maxing pretty clearly shows the priorities of 6e. None of it looks good for player from the system side so far.

[Michael Chandra]

So going to a maximum of two attacks from a system that generally started with at least 2 is a huge loss

5e only allowed 1 attack per Initiative Pass period, not at least two. Yes, maybe it's less attacks per Combat Turn, but with only 1 Initiative Score the difference only really matters when it comes to Toxins and Drugs. But hey, it's allowed to be overly dramatic.