[Ghost Rigger]

So, I've gotten into a heated debate about whether or not driving without Gridguide makes you a menace to everyone driving with Gridguide. We agreed to take it to a different thread aaaaand here we are.

Let's start with a description of Skyguide:

By linking with SkyGuide, a drone can use the network’s own guidance systems to get where it needs to be. The downside is that the system takes priority over the owner’s commands, allowing the drone to be controlled by the Guide, or Riggers employed by SkyGuide, against the owner’s wishes. The upside is that SkyGuide provides both a Navigation (6) autosoft and a Maneuver (6) autosoft to any drone while it’s logged in to the network.

Based on that description, we can think of the Skyguide host as an RCC with control over every drone linked to it. Can we also think of the Gridguide host (and long as we're discussing the matter, the Harborguide host) as an RCC? Common sense says yes, but just to be sure I read the original description of Gridguide given in Rigger 3. Everything checks out: the Gridguide of the 2060s takes data in and puts instructions out, self-driving autonavs follow those instructions and collisions are averted by a vehicle's sensors and autonav. This closely matches the behavior of an RCC issuing commands to drones or vehicles.

With that in mind, I can answer some important questions:

How does Gridguide work?
Smartass answer: like an RCC. Real answer: Gridguide takes data from various sources and based on that data gives instructions to the vehicles it controls. The vehicles follow these instructions, and that's how you go from point A to point B.

What kind of data does Gridguide use and where does it get it from?
Gridguide hasn't been described in detail since Rigger 3, so it's not quite clear if all the old traffic cams, directional radar stations and whatnot are still up. However, I can tell you that it knows the identity, location, speed, and direction of all vehicles it controls. If asked for directions (which is almost always the case), it knows the route and destination of the vehicles as well. This data is used to manage traffic, get everyone where they want to go in good time and meter any paid parking you do. To gather information on road hazards, Gridguide relies on traffic cams, weather updates, sensor data from the vehicles it controls and probably some other things I can't think of off the top of my head.

How does Gridguide manage traffic?
Every street in a metroplex has a maximum traffic rating, which is the maximum number of vehicles that can be on it at any given time. Gridguide determines the route of every vehicle it controls on the basis of keeping every street below its maximum traffic rating. During emergencies, Gridguide will divert traffic away from the emergency and out of the path of first responders while changing traffic lights to accommodate the first responders. Additionally, Gridguide will divert traffic away from any vehicle pursuits.

How does Gridguide enforce traffic laws?
Illegal driving actions are impossible to commit while following Gridguide's instructions, and Gridguide takes precedent over all other inputs (except for rigging, as Gridguide is a form of remote control).

How does Gridguide prevent crashes?
Vehicles controlled by Gridguide cannot crash into each other or any known obstacles because it is impossible to do so while following Gridguide's instructions, barring a mechanical malfunction or certain unavoidable road hazards such as ice. In those cases, or in the case of a sudden, unforeseen obstacle or road hazard, either the Driver must make a Reflex+Pilot Groundcraft check or the vehicle must make a Pilot+Maneuvering check. Gridguide does provide a Maneuvering autosoft, with rating depending on your level of service. To learn your level of service, bug Wakshaani about it.

Is it important to having functional sensors while using Gridguide?
Yes. Not only does Gridguide use data from your sensors, but you need them to detect any sudden, unforeseen obstacles and road hazards.

Does Grideguide allow all vehicles it controls to see each other over the Matrix?
No. Pilots cannot see Matrix Icons. Where did you get that idea?

Are vehicles without Gridguide dangerous to Gridguide users?
Not as a rule. Unless concealed in some way, Gridguide would be aware of any vehicles on the road that it doesn't control and could compensate for them like any other known obstacle. A detectable off-grid vehicle would only be dangerous if driven incompetently and/or recklessly.

[PiXeL01]

I agree with the above. As long as your vehicle can be detected by other vehicles’ sensors you are not a hazard when either disconnected from the Grid or driving manually, unless you want to be of course.

The corporation holding the policing contract of that city would have limited access to GridLink and can request vehicles be shutdown if they suspect foul play. Much traffic control is handled by drones though iirc

[Overbyte]

It depends what you mean by "hazzard".
Clearly, since you are not operating your vehicle in the same way as the grid guide would, you are creating unknown movements that have to be adjusted for. This can only make things more difficult for grid guide and hence you are creating increased risk.

[Michael Chandra]

It depends what you mean by "hazzard".
Clearly, since you are not operating your vehicle in the same way as the grid guide would, you are creating unknown movements that have to be adjusted for. This can only make things more difficult for grid guide and hence you are creating increased risk.

Only if you're driving weird. If you're driving proper, the AI can easily figure out how to keep you in mind. If you drive crazy (Gremlins-glitch, vehicle chase, movement-boosted runner literally running while invisible but the cameras pierce the spell, etc), THEN things will become tricky.

[Wakshaani]

I plan to go into that at some point in The Future (ooo), but, the basics here are correct. The biggest problem is that a metahuman driver can't be anticipated for as they don't make rational choices, are distracted, etc. Which means that letting GridGuide (tm) drive everything is safe until someone NOT using the system is around. They screw it up for everybody. This is less true in areas where GG isn't around, like the Barrens. There, most people handle it themselves which makes people downtown terribly, terribly nervous.

[Overbyte]

It depends what you mean by "hazzard".
Clearly, since you are not operating your vehicle in the same way as the grid guide would, you are creating unknown movements that have to be adjusted for. This can only make things more difficult for grid guide and hence you are creating increased risk.

Only if you're driving weird. If you're driving proper, the AI can easily figure out how to keep you in mind. If you drive crazy (Gremlins-glitch, vehicle chase, movement-boosted runner literally running while invisible but the cameras pierce the spell, etc), THEN things will become tricky.

You don't have to drive "weird". No matter how you drive you won't be as predictable and have as good of response time or precise of response as the Grid Guide and therefore you can only INCREASE the hazard, never decrease it. (Assuming really good AI which is pretty much the standard in SR).

[Hobbes]

You don't have to drive "weird". No matter how you drive you won't be as predictable and have as good of response time or precise of response as the Grid Guide and therefore you can only INCREASE the hazard, never decrease it. (Assuming really good AI which is pretty much the standard in SR).

Rigger with Knowledge skill Local Grid Guide specialization Traffic Maneuvers.  Zip right through that red light without a problem.  For the Rigger anyway.

Gamewise stats on Grid Guide Hosts, who has access, how the Traffic is actually managed (I would presume a few hundred Agents overseen by a couple dozen traffic operators), degree of coordination with Law Enforcement.  Marks on vehicles?  Slaved Vehicles?


Honestly I would think in many cities the Grid Guide Contract is a subsidiary of or a partner with whoever owns the local Law Enforcement contract.  That particular partnership may make too much sense though if you get my meaning. 

How Grid Guide reacts to high speed maneuvers from non-guided vehicles... I could honestly see shut down controlled traffic and let the lunatic pass would be an option once the danger level gets high enough.  And just start re-routing traffic away from possible/projected routes so Law Enforcement has a clear shot.  And I could see it go the other way too, where GG turns on all the red lights, drops barricades in your path, and tries to keep the rest of the traffic moving in spite of your shenanigans. 

[Beta]

About how grid guide reacts to vehicles not under its control:. I'm assuming that the system is able to be punitive towards them, and the engineering level pitch may evem talk aboit thise capabilities ..... But no way in an elf's life were all the rich and powerful going to forfeit the ability for their drivers to ignore gridguide in an emergency (you know, like being late to see your paramore or something).

But for sure mixing in direct controlled vehicles really hurts GG's effeciency.  When all under GG control can keep vehicles closer, leave less gaps between crossing traffic flows at intersections, and optimize the overall flow even if it is suboptimal for individual vehicles

[Wakshaani]

Rigger with Knowledge skill Local Grid Guide specialization Traffic Maneuvers.  Zip right through that red light without a problem.  For the Rigger anyway.

Gamewise stats on Grid Guide Hosts, who has access, how the Traffic is actually managed (I would presume a few hundred Agents overseen by a couple dozen traffic operators), degree of coordination with Law Enforcement.  Marks on vehicles?  Slaved Vehicles?


Honestly I would think in many cities the Grid Guide Contract is a subsidiary of or a partner with whoever owns the local Law Enforcement contract.  That particular partnership may make too much sense though if you get my meaning. 

How Grid Guide reacts to high speed maneuvers from non-guided vehicles... I could honestly see shut down controlled traffic and let the lunatic pass would be an option once the danger level gets high enough.  And just start re-routing traffic away from possible/projected routes so Law Enforcement has a clear shot.  And I could see it go the other way too, where GG turns on all the red lights, drops barricades in your path, and tries to keep the rest of the traffic moving in spite of your shenanigans.

What's that? Renraku operates GridGuide(tm)? And SkyGuide(tm)? And has a new high-tech security force that it's selling to cities as part of its overall "We'll run the city for you" package? How strange. How strange...

(Neo-PD; Serving the community.)

[Michael Chandra]

About how grid guide reacts to vehicles not under its control:. I'm assuming that the system is able to be punitive towards them, and the engineering level pitch may evem talk aboit thise capabilities ..... But no way in an elf's life were all the rich and powerful going to forfeit the ability for their drivers to ignore gridguide in an emergency (you know, like being late to see your paramore or something).

But for sure mixing in direct controlled vehicles really hurts GG's effeciency.  When all under GG control can keep vehicles closer, leave less gaps between crossing traffic flows at intersections, and optimize the overall flow even if it is suboptimal for individual vehicles

Exactly, GG can make everything stick close because all are controlled simultaneously. Other people, not so much. Worse when runners or invisible stuff is involved: If one car under GG (which even under my 'OR-9 for Sensor-tests by vehicles against Illusions' has a plausible chance when you have dozens of cars involved) pierces the Illusion, a dozen cars or more will suddenly 'freak' and scare the other uncontrolled cars.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Gridguide's purpose is to allow coordination between vehicles well beyond LOS/vehicle-based sensor range.  If you've ever driven through a construction zone on the interstate, think about how one doofus braking too hard causes a ripple that magnifies back through traffic, sometimes culminating in someone getting rear-ended.  Gridguide eliminates that.  Under GG guidance vehicles maintain closer following distances at higher speeds than metahuman attention spans permit.  Cars under GG guidance don't accelerate only to have to come to a stop due to a traffic light.  They maintain steadier, more constant speeds.  Consider in the real world cars average about 20kph in dense urban environments (lots of time stuck motionless in gridlock/red lights) whereas Gridguide guided traffic averages 80kph in the same conditions! (SR5, pg 200).


Your vehicle can get real-time status of at least the next three intersections (SR5 pg 421) and so your vehicle's speed can be tweaked to ensure you hit them all green.  Assuming they even HAVE lights; imagine almost any traffic-depicting scene in a Sci-Fi movie... streams of traffic cross right through each other with no collisions as individual cars all pass through the gaps between cars in the crossed stream!

Consider also that Gridguide doesn't just use proactive controls of the traffic; people can indeed do "crazy drek" and GG will do its absolute best to ensure nearby traffic is as minimally impacted as possible.  For example:

:She made her way to the 520 bridge and told GridGuide
that she needed a priority turnaround. Like magic, a gap
opened up so she could make a U-turn and pull in front of the
broken-down limo. Traffic was still moving smoothly, if a bit
congested, thanks to the automatic rerouting of cars around
the distressed vehicle.

Think about that.  You can just flip a sudden Yooie into oncoming traffic and so long as you warned GridGuide, and "like magic" the traffic just parts and gives you a lane.  And nobody gets wiped out in a T-Bone or Head-on collision!  And think about what that means if some of the oncoming traffic is NOT on GridGuide.  Yeah, owch.  And if you go pulling extreme maneuvers while not on GridGuide, remember that vehicles under control of Gridguide are considered under the control of their Pilot program (SR5 pg 202).  Even assuming everyone involved has perfectly good sensors working on the vehicles, most vehicles Pilot ratings don't go higher than 2, and that's not a lot of dice to succeed on a Crash test.


Anyway, this thread exists in part because I was the other partner in the OP's heated discussion.  It revolved around whether or not it's reasonable for municipalities to require GridGuide participation/usage.  Obviously it wouldn't be in places where GridGuide is not operational, natch.  But in certain cases, sure it'd be a no brainer that Gridguide be mandatory and noncompliance could result in being stopped and ticketed.  Afterall, making any kind of turn or lane shift without being linked to GridGuide is in effect the same thing as doing it today without warning everyone around you by using your blinkers beforehand.

[Beta]

I'd think that mandatory Grid Guide (or equivalent other brand) would mostly only happen in areas controlled mostly by a single corp, that can be confident that it is reasonably aligned on what is a priority.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

OTOH I'd view it being a lot more common.  Interstates and similar highways, bridges, any toll routes, and etc.  Also many downtown through routes, especially elevated ones.

[Ajax]

I'd think that mandatory Grid Guide (or equivalent other brand) would mostly only happen in areas controlled mostly by a single corp, that can be confident that it is reasonably aligned on what is a priority.

The roads are still considered part of the government infrastructure, so depending on exactly where you are in the world, it will be the municipal/state/province that is responsible for them.

However, I imagine that Grid Guide (or equivalent) is considered an essential part of a modern 21st Century roadway and too profitable to be a government service. Ergo, most governments will probably turn to private companies to provide the Grid Guide. Grid Guide is probably a government-backed monopoly, like Lone Star/Knight Errant or Ma Bell.

[Michael Chandra]

OTOH I'd view it being a lot more common.  Interstates and similar highways, bridges, any toll routes, and etc.  Also many downtown through routes, especially elevated ones.

Unlikely, because toll routes, bridges etc aren't usually a place that a, can afford a full gridguide system, and b, are traffic-crowded enough to demand that. Downtown, on the other hand, definitely will be secured.