[Opti]

The 100.

[Marcus]

Have they ever explained why Clockwork hates TMs?

He survived the end of 4th edition. Go read Emergence, it's not that he hates them more then he hates any other specific group, Clockworks is just villainous rat bastard.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

That he is, but he does have a particular mad-on for technomancers.

[Mirikon]

That he is, but he does have a particular mad-on for technomancers.

Because he thinks he's in control when he's got his drones, but TMs and AIs are so much beyond his control that he is scared of them. Fear turns to anger. Anger turns to hate. Hate turns to being a bigoted shithead.

[Jack in the Box]

Can we all agree that Clockwork is a villain we love to hate?  I feel like he is a great character BECAUSE we hate him so much.

[Marcus]

I like a good villain as much as the next guy. I'm a huge Marcone fan, from Dresden files. But there's nothing about Clockwork i respect. I recognize his value as a what not to do example.  He makes custom drones and screws over his party. I believe in the importance of that role, as an object lesson. Many runners do bad things, and many of them i'd give a pass to. But clockwork just rubs me the wrong way every time.

[PiXeL01]

There’s nothing to like about him and he is nothing but hate and insults.

[Jack in the Box]

The Humanis Policlub is nothing but hate and insults.  Do you think they make terrible villains?

[Reaver]

That he is, but he does have a particular mad-on for technomancers.

Because he thinks he's in control when he's got his drones, but TMs and AIs are so much beyond his control that he is scared of them. Fear turns to anger. Anger turns to hate. Hate turns to being a bigoted shithead.

Running Wild page 193

“Seagerson!” His boss’s voice blared over his audio, “Get your ass in here!”
The hobgoblin nearly vaulted over his workbench as he sprinted down the hallway and through the door
marked “Executive Vice President Shaunda Modzeleski, CTO.”
“Here boss,” he said, panting and wringing his hands. He gaped at his boss, who appeared to be sleeping
in her finely appointed leather chair.
“Not my office, you idiot,” came the voice again. “In here!”
“Oh,” he said as he sheepishly sat in a nearby chair and flipped into virtual reality. He saw his boss’s icon,
exquisitely sculpted to mirror her mind-burning rage.
“What is that?!” He looked where she was pointing and saw a small orange ball. It had large feline eyes,
a tail, and a tiny mouth with spiky teeth. It appeared to be chewing on a lump of garbage code. When it saw
him, it bounced a few times and made a high-pitched giggle, as though it were happy to see him. Then it turned
back to its task of munching on the code with focused intent.
“Er … a feral AI?” he ventured.
“Try again.”
“Um,” he cringed and checked his analysis software. “It looks like it used to be a Stealth program of
some sort …”
“No, idiot, that!” She pointed again, this time clearly at a toy made of gears and springs. He recognized
it immediately; it was an agent program monitoring all of the CTO’s traffic. Closing on his icon, she said, “Did
you know what I found when I traced that agent’s datastream back to its source?”
He sighed, resigned. “Tell me.”
“It led back to you. You who came so highly recommended, who proved so trustworthy. How could you
betray my trust this way?”
“Let me explain,” he said quietly. In virtual reality, he hung his head, then reached into his pants and
pulled out a cream pie. With a sudden and fluid motion, he violently slammed the pie into her face. She screamed
a digital scream as tendrils of virtual milk, eggs, and vanilla writhed into her icon’s head and into her brain,
causing very non-virtual cerebral scarring. Her icon froze in the macabre pose of a persona connected to a
brain-dead user.
He mentally called up a commcode. “Run’s scrubbed,” he said. “I need evac.”
“Acknowledged,” came the response. “So things didn’t run like clockwork, huh?”
“Shut the fuck up,” he snapped. “Just get me out of this skyraker and back to Montenegro.”
He crouched next to the orange ball, which bounced into his lap and cooed, nestling against him contentedly.
“Oh, Wuzzie,” he muttered, petting the tiny AI. “I can’t take you anywhere, can I?”

I think Clockwork is a little more complex then people give him credit...

[Mirikon]

The Humanis Policlub is nothing but hate and insults.  Do you think they make terrible villains?

Yes, actually. They are one-dimensional. That's like trying to say that the tides are the villain when you have to deal with a leaking sea wall. Humanis is a 'problem' or a 'complication' to throw into a run. Brackhaven, however, is a good villain, because there's actually more substance there, with his political ambitions and the dance he makes with the press, and the actual intelligence to mastermind things, and so on. Alamos 30K and the Human Legion are good villains, because they are shadowy groups that could have sleepers or hidden plots anywhere, making them infinitely better as the secret masterminds of whatever a group is running against.

A group of angry racists isn't a villain. The guy who can turn a group of angry racists to a singular purpose and make them act according to the plan is a villain.


@Reaver - People who are into dog fighting say they still love their dogs. People who abuse their children say they still love them. That doesn't make them more complex, it just adds more to their hypocrisy.

[Michael Chandra]

Humanis you use as opposition when you want a simple situation, or when you put an emotional choice in. 'I don't want you to wipe out the entire compound at my sister's request, since that will stay with her forever. Can you bring us the guy responsible instead of killing them all?' You don't use them as villains.

Now that corporate-security-anti-SINless terrorist group manipulating Humanis in an attempt to lure out Shadowrunners to kill? That's better. (Been there, done that, by the way. Was a nice Season Finale. And then they became the stealth opposition for an entire Season, with several affiliated Johnsons seemingly assassinated. Incidentally, the season finale after that was also nice, as the players were hired to clear out any evidence belonging to the cell, while during the run the cell was wiped out one by one. Still got the news-flashes I showed them during the run.)

[Jack in the Box]

The Humanis Policlub is nothing but hate and insults.  Do you think they make terrible villains?

Yes, actually. They are one-dimensional. That's like trying to say that the tides are the villain when you have to deal with a leaking sea wall. Humanis is a 'problem' or a 'complication' to throw into a run. .

Sometimes Captain America fights the Red Skull.  Sometimes, he fights his own government.  Simple one-dimensional villains have their place and a good story writer knows how to use them.

For example, you can use characters like Clockwork, the members of Humanis Policlub, insect shamans etc. to "force" the PCs to team up with people they don't want to (e.g. .  "I know we've been enemies for the entire campaign, but we both hate the Humanis Policlub and I'm the only one who can get you into and out of their fortress").

[Mirikon]

Jack, i'm going to have to disagree. One-dimensional types like Humanis are good for temporary challenges, and the same goes for the government, or the mafia, or whatever. As Mel Gibson's character says in Payback, you go up high enough, it always comes back to one man. Like I said, Brackhaven is a villain, but Humanis is a problem, complication, or (depending on your group) an asset. (Witting or unwitting is besides the point.) You have to have depth to them before they can become villains. Random Gangster #23 is nothing but a speed bump for Daredevil, but the Kingpin, now HE is a villain. Same with the bugs. Crazy insect shaman isn't a villain, until they start preying on people and building a hive, and trying to bring over a Queen.

Large, one-dimensional threats only work as more than a speed bump if they eventually refine down to one person that the team can take on, or they are massive things that are way beyond the group's pay grade, and the focus of the run becomes running away and getting out from under. To continue with the bug analogy, a hive refines down to the Shaman or the Queen. Take them out, and the threat is either neutralized, or made a great deal less. The Universal Brotherhood, on the other hand, is far too massive for any runner team to hope to take on, and so your only hope is to get out from under, and hope you cover your tracks enough that they don't come after you and yours.

[Marcus]

For example, you can use characters like Clockwork, the members of Humanis Policlub, insect shamans etc. to "force" the PCs to team up with people they don't want to (e.g. .  "I know we've been enemies for the entire campaign, but we both hate the Humanis Policlub and I'm the only one who can get you into and out of their fortress").

The problem with playing that game is the old Black Chip problem from 7th sea 1st. If you do this with any regularity, some players will sooner or later just hate the other guy more then they want to win.

[Jack in the Box]

Sorry guys, I keep coming back to Red Skull.  I think he's a great villain for Captain America and he's not substantially different from any of the other characters mentioned. 

Hell, the BBEG to beat all BBEGs is Satan.  There's lots of great stories that involve him.

It is all about how you contextualize the one dimensional bad guy, what characters you put around that bad guy.  Batman v. Joker, van Helsing v Dracula, the Emperor v Luke Skywalker, Thanos v the Marvel Superheroes (comic book, not movie), Dormamu v. Dr. Strange, etc.  You can find one-dimensional villains _everywhere_ because they work IF you use them right.