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Amazonia vs. Aztlan

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Frostriese

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« Reply #30 on: <11-03-10/1132:51> »
Then again, nukes are just one form of WMD deterrent. From all we know so far, Atztlan and Amazonia should be in a magical MAD situation - yet, Atztlan feels confident enough to attack? That is what I find odd about it...

FoxBoy

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« Reply #31 on: <11-03-10/1212:39> »
I'm fairly surprised they have not investigated neutron bombs further. Anything organic dies instantly, leaving the infrastructure intact, and as far as radioactivity is concerned, is fairly 'clean'.

Nukes are just plain messy, and meant to make a statement at the same time it blows something up, with the unfortunate side effect of ruining the land for generations to come.

Neuts just cleans house so you can move right in.

Edit: ok, strike what I said about the destructive potential. I just did a wikipedia search on neutrons and found out that they still have a lesser destructive yield, but it's still measured in kilotons. It's just the neutron radiation is far worse and deadlier, though shorter lived. the after effects are lethal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb
« Last Edit: <11-03-10/1217:54> by FoxBoy »

FastJack

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« Reply #32 on: <11-03-10/1233:08> »
Actually, I think a bigger reason the Neutron Bomb never really "took off" was because it was closer to a Bio/Chemical weapon than a bomb. And just about everyone frowns on those. It's truly one of the WORST weapons of mass destruction.

Radiation poisoning

FoxBoy

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« Reply #33 on: <11-03-10/1248:33> »
Azzies already do blood magic. You can't get much worse then that.

Frostriese

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« Reply #34 on: <11-03-10/1423:36> »
Azzies already do blood magic.

And Amazonia something similar. As said, shouldnt they have a magical balance of terror? Whatever happened to that?

hazmat the monstar

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« Reply #35 on: <11-04-10/2050:21> »
it might also be interesting to point out that the Corp Court has planned to put their space elevator (think that was what they were calling it...sky elevator...ugh i can't remember) in Aztlan territory, so needless to say they'll be paying close attention to this
This space elevator is like the ones they mention in Eclipse Phase, no? There are many similarities in Eclipse Phase. Obviously, since it is a Rob Boyle brainchild.
Oh, Uh. War. yeah. I guess War is going to be like a core setting? So you can throw your runners in Black Ops style?

Longshot23

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« Reply #36 on: <11-13-10/2359:01> »
According to the Aztlan S/B, Amazonia has a Locus, which is helping to regenerate the rainforest.  I'm betting that's a major objective of the powers-that-be behind the Azzies.

Kot

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« Reply #37 on: <11-15-10/1743:35> »
And Amazonia something similar. As said, shouldnt they have a magical balance of terror? Whatever happened to that?
Similar? Maybe they're using the true Blood Magic (Atzlaner blood magic would be ED Death Magic then, which is just a really evil form of the former).
Well, i hope not. If Blood Magic comes into SR, Johnsons would require a Blood Oath from the group, that they'll do the run as intended. ;P
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Frostriese

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« Reply #38 on: <12-08-10/2122:33> »
Similar? Maybe they're using the true Blood Magic (Atzlaner blood magic would be ED Death Magic then, which is just a really evil form of the former).

The Amazonians use lesser forms of blood magic per the Atztlan sourcebook.

Fizzygoo

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« Reply #39 on: <12-09-10/0109:21> »
A note on the nukes (and to see if I can quote correctly :) )...

Quote
2004 : Israel retaliated to a chemical attack by nuking half of Libyan cities. It worked (Rulebook, Target: Wastelands).
2006 : North Korea launched one missile at Japan. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2009 : SAIM commando had the Lone Eagle of fame launched at Russia. It didn't work (Rulebook).
2030 : India and Pakistan fires nukes in Kashmir. It worked (Shadows of Asia).
2056 : Ares brings a tactical nuke to Chicago. It worked (well, more or less, Burning Bright, Bug City).
France conducts regular underground nuclear testing off the coast of French Guiana (SOTA:2064).
2064 : Winternight has magically modified nuke exploding all over the world (System Failure).

Unfortunately I cannot remember what happened in Find Your Own Truth, when the nuke failed (year/how/why)

Post-Awakening, there's a higher rate of nukes "working." With two being "magically modified" in one form or another. Pre-Awakening, both the failed launches...well nukes don't detonate like conventional munitions. There is a chance that critical mass would be obtained from a crash, but unlikely. The Corebook just says the North Korean nuke "didn't detonate" and being a relatively new nuclear power, it could have been filled with stuffed drop-bears and just called a nuke by the war mongering propaganda machines of Japan and N. Korea or it could have had a faulty design, someone could have forgotten to install the fission/fusionable material (or other component), we are talking North Korea here. With the Lone Eagle incident, to a far far lesser degree the same issues might arise, but there could also be the issue that SAIM didn't have the arming code, just the launch code (though I don't know enough about the US missiles to know with any certainty that there are two codes, arming/launching, or if they're one and the same, or something entirely different). The Corebook states "the warheads never hit" and SWA says
then the missile disappeared." Typically if an ICBM warhead doesn't reach it's target location it doesn't activate. Either way, both are statistical freaks that happened before the Awakening.

Discarding the pre-Awakening nukes (and assuming the failed one in Find Your Own Truth was post-Awakening) that means every nuke has worked, even those modified or affected by magic, save the FYOT device. And one cannot discard the French's testing because in the testing it is shown that nukes still work, that's the whole point of the tests. SOTA: 2064's quote is "France still conducts regular underground testing, mostly offshore from French Guyana, as a show of bravado against Amazonia and Saeder-Krupp." (posted by Skywarp with no one posting to contradict him/her) Of course nothing is said about whether the tests show normal results, however for it to be used as "bravado" against other countries/corporations the main way (only way with out inviting people to partake in the experiments on site) to prove it would be seismographic detections by other countries with signatures equivalent to the French's claimed yields for each test. France says, "Everyone stay calm, we're doing an underground test of an X-megaton device at Y-time." Then Amazonia and Saeder-Krupp look at their seismographs after that time and say, "wow, look at that, that's indicative of an X-megaton device." Add to that, satellite info to watch for ground deformation at the sites...the current info in Shadowrun books would indicate that nukes work just fine.

Because the two most notable failed nukes were both launched, and that the Pakistan-India war lead to "three tactical nuclear devices exploded and thought the Himalayan valley contained much of the heat and shockwaves, the whole region is now irreparably irradiated and unsuitable for life" (SoA p. 66), where tactically generally means launched/delivered from smaller than ICBM delivery systems, it is a far higher probability that something in the delivery systems failed in the Lone Eagle and N. Korean attacks than the nuke itself. Then add to that that semi-ballistics transports still work, launching satellites still work, etc., a well-maintained MIRV on a well-maintained ICBM is just as deadly as it is today.

Then you have Ares, Saeder-Krupp, other Megas, and other nuclear-capable nations all holding on to stockpiles. If they didn't work they would be dismantling them for material use in other areas. But even if they work at 1/10th power (and only the magically modified nukes have shown any indication of reduced power) that's still quite a punch considering modern nukes are tens, hundreds of times as powerful as Little Boy and Fat Man.

Of course I may have missed something in the canon, or some of my assumptions are too narrow or broad, or my knowledge on nuclear weapons has grown a bit foggy, so I welcome comment/discussion on it :)
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Fizzygoo

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« Reply #40 on: <12-09-10/0110:32> »
As a side note how do I get the "from: 'Poster' on 'Date'" to appear in a quote?
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Doc Chaos

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« Reply #41 on: <12-09-10/0120:08> »
Code: [Select]
[quote author=Fizzygoo link=topic=273.msg17840#msg17840 date=1291875032]
As a side note how do I get the "from: 'Poster' on 'Date'" to appear in a quote?
[/quote]

Like this
SR4A Limited Edition [german] - 0478/1100

FastJack

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« Reply #42 on: <12-09-10/0147:14> »
If you're posting from a book, all you need is the author tag:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=SR4A, p. 365]blah blah blah[/quote]

lonewolf23k

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« Reply #43 on: <12-09-10/0859:58> »
When the original poster mentioned Aztechnology getting hit by Amazonia-friendly eco-terrorists, it occurred to me that this would also lead to a lot of Rival Corps hiring Runners to make hits on Aztech, telling them to operate under the guise of eco-terrorism.

Not to mention the CAS still lusting after the parts of Texas that Aztlan took from them; an Aztlan/Amazonia war may involve a lot more fronts then just the two nations rather quickly.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #44 on: <12-09-10/0914:51> »
I'm fairly surprised they have not investigated neutron bombs further. Anything organic dies instantly, leaving the infrastructure intact, and as far as radioactivity is concerned, is fairly 'clean'.

Nukes are just plain messy, and meant to make a statement at the same time it blows something up, with the unfortunate side effect of ruining the land for generations to come.

Neuts just cleans house so you can move right in.

Edit: ok, strike what I said about the destructive potential. I just did a wikipedia search on neutrons and found out that they still have a lesser destructive yield, but it's still measured in kilotons. It's just the neutron radiation is far worse and deadlier, though shorter lived. the after effects are lethal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb
Ok, just to clarify, since I was a Nuclear Electronics Technician in the US Navy and have a pretty good idea of what radiation does, the neutron bomb would activate (i.e. make radioactive) any metals in the area.  EVERY metal object in the area would become radioactive.  The heavier metals (like gold, lead, and even a slightly less massive one like iron) would have long enough half lives to render the eniter area unlivable for several generations.

That's why neutron bombs were tabled, not because of lesser yield.  And, yes, radiation poisoning sucks.  We had to study what the effects were.  And they even sucked on paper, let alone the pictures...
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