Shadowrun Play > Character creation and critique
[SR5] Priority Generation: Math You Really Ought to Know
Overbyte:
I'm with Hobbes and Tecumseh.
Although I'm a math guy and like what you've tried to do here and agree with some of your main points (particularly about tall stacks), there are a number of important issues not quantified.
As others have pointed out, Skills have a certain "diminishing returns" unless you are trying to make a character that is good at everything, and if you are, stats go further boosting all skills in a category. Often later in character development the math is simple as to whether to raise a bunch of skills or just raise one stat. Limits are another place, I just made a new char that was a Mystic Adept Face Infiltrator and when I got done with everything I realized my Limits were terrible (5 social and 3 physical) and had to rearrange my stats so i could actually be good at Social and Physical tasks that I had plenty of skill points in (Sneaking for example).
You mention "optimal skill allocation" what is that?
Also, some of the math I don't understand, like how do you come by the various numbers you have for Attr E-->D? If one were to build a character with Attr E "optimally" you'd have tall stack in a couple of stats and the rest 1's, so when you increase to Attr D you'd be increasing 2 stats from 1 to 2 which would be only 20 points each (10 each), or one stat from 1 to 3 which would be 25 points. So the most you would lose going from D to E would be 25 yet the chart has all sorts of numbers in it? I must have missed something. Also, If you think about going from Human E to Human D how to you get the value for that? Consider that those Special Attr points could (and often are) used to raise Magic. So you might be moving you Magic from 4 to 6. That's 55 Karma cost. Whereas going from Edge 2 to 4 is 35. You have 45 listed. Did you average these values? Again you say "if allocated optimally" but don't define what that is.
Long winded thing about your Ork Sam here.. maybe too much ...
[spoiler]And the big problem is.. not to cast too much shade, but the idea that you "save 73 karma" by building your street sam with Attr D and Skills B completely throws out the window important considerations such as the fact that you can't raise any stats by more than 4 (with cyberware), and with 14 points in Attr you are going to be bad at absolutely everything outside of combat skills. Essentially your Ork (if built what I think you are calling optimally) will have 1 in everything except Bod, Str, and AGI. Whereas if you have Stats B you are going to be good at everything you need to be, perhaps really good AND be decent in the other skills. Because as people have pointed out, unless you are playing a solo game you need to be more a specialist than a JoAT. How are you going to build this Sam? You would probably put your 5 group in Unarmed or Firearms and use the other points for the other skills and then blow off everything else since you have no stats.
Having said that, most of my characters are made to be more versatile, but I still favor stats over skills every time, because stats are more costly to raise than skills and contribute to a wide range of skills all at once. Consider how far 1 AGI point goes for a Sam char. And even with a JoAT char as people point out in that other thread, good stats and 1 point of skill is much better (cost effective) than bad stats and a bunch of skills
[/spoiler]
I understand it's pretty much impossible to take all these things into account, but I guess I'm wondering how you came to these numbers in many cases. Perhaps much of that was explained in the original SR4 post?
Beta:
I don't think that the OP ever advocated building a character totally according to those numbers -- and I think the subject line captures it nicely with "The Math You Really Ought to Know". I'd say that understanding this stuff is useful when generating a character, but by no means sufficient. It is a bit like understanding compound interest when taking out a loan, you really should understand that and what those numbers mean for you, but that isn't enough information to tell you if a particular loan is a good idea or not.
Dwagonzhan:
--- Quote from: Overbyte on ---You mention "optimal skill allocation" what is that?
--- End quote ---
Skill Points under Priority accumulate in value the deeper into a skill you invest.
That's because the Karma cost equivalent per skill rank (post chargen or in Karma Build) increases with each rank. While the cost to YOU in chargen is 1:1.
I'll demonstrate this in practice via two hypothetical cases.
SCENARIO: We have 12 skill points (granted via priority system) to spend.
-Case I
I pick two skills to specialize in. Sinking 4 points into one, 6 into another, and using 1 point apiece to buy a Specialization.
(this is a very common spread on my characters in practice; used for Perception 4 [Visual] + Combat Skill 6 [Specialization])
Breaking it down into Karma equivalent.
Skill A: 6 , Skill B: 6 = ((1+2+3+4+5+6)*2)*2
Result: 42 + 42 = 84 Karma
VS
-Case II
Buying 3 ranks in four different skills, with no specializations.
Skill A,B,C, & D all @ Rating 3 = [(1+2+3)*2)] * 4
Result: 12 karma x 4 Skills = 48 Karma
By spending those 12 points "deeper" in Case I vs "Wider" in Case 2, I greatly improve my raw Karma equivalent gains.
That is NUMERICALLY optimal. Not necessarily optimal for any given situation in play. In this way, specialization or "deep" builds force you to pay in opportunity costs elsewhere (in theory).
In practice, this isn't much of an issue because Shadowrun is a team game.
Everyone on the team is (in theory) a specialist in something. So most characters only really need a handful of core skills at high rank, with a smattering of niche or support skills.
(Mages take this to an extreme, requiring only Spellcasting, Summoning+Binding to be highly useful/powerful)
EDIT: Corrections because I can't math (DURR HURR). But my main point remains.
Overbyte:
@Dwagonzhan
I understand what you are saying.
But that doesn't explain what "optimal" means in the general sense.
If I have 20 skill points is "optimal" 3 skills at 5(7) and 1 at 1(3)?
Or.. in other words is "optimal" = maximum number of skills at 5 with a specialization in each (for 6 points each) and the remaining points in a single skill as high as possible with specialization?
Likewise what is "optimal" stat placement?
Is it = maximum one stat, max - 1 in as many as possible, then everything left over in one stat?
Pap Renvela:
--- Quote from: Overbyte on ---@Dwagonzhan
I understand what you are saying.
But that doesn't explain what "optimal" means in the general sense.
If I have 20 skill points is "optimal" 3 skills at 5(7) and 1 at 1(3)?
Or.. in other words is "optimal" = maximum number of skills at 5 with a specialization in each (for 6 points each) and the remaining points in a single skill as high as possible with specialization?
Likewise what is "optimal" stat placement?
Is it = maximum one stat, max - 1 in as many as possible, then everything left over in one stat?
--- End quote ---
20 skill points... 6(+2), 6(+2), 6 would yield the most Karma... which is what I believe the OP would call optimal
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