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How do you determine ownership of something

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adzling

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« Reply #15 on: <01-06-17/2115:30> »
Reavers fluff makes sense, if the crunch can be simplified to facilitate that that would seem optimal.

If the transfer interval is reduced from 1 minute to 1 second and all the low value, low tech rfid items are excluded then you get pretty close.

Still interested to hear more about how you think using the core books ownership transfer rules to expose ownership is game breaking?

It not easy to successfully transfer ownership via the extended test..and it takes a while

Kincaid

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« Reply #16 on: <01-06-17/2129:47> »
Reavers fluff makes sense, if the crunch can be simplified to facilitate that that would seem optimal.

If the transfer interval is reduced from 1 minute to 1 second and all the low value, low tech rfid items are excluded then you get pretty close.

Still interested to hear more about how you think using the core books ownership transfer rules to expose ownership is game breaking?

It not easy to successfully transfer ownership via the extended test..and it takes a while

It's not that hard for players to transfer ownership, the real impediment is the time crunch.  You've got mysterious cyberdeck--can you finish the transfer and figure out who to avoid before the owners track you down and take it back?  That's a scene that creates tension and might reward smart thinking.  All good things.  The problem is when Renraku has your gun.  They sure as hell aren't worried about you tracking them down to take it back and they'll just throw five dudes at the problem and say, "Hey, use the teamwork rules and figure this out."
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

Reaver

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« Reply #17 on: <01-06-17/2136:51> »


A thought exercise for those pondering all things ownership: When you wake up in the morning and boot up your commlink, how does your gun know you're its owner?  Does being a technomancer change things?

It knows, because the game says it knows.

Now, If you really want it, I am sure the writer of that section of the rules would happily write out a 300 page manual explaining all the ins and outs of the system and how it all interconnects for you... for the low low cost of a few thousand dollars. (That's what I and my company charge when asked to write out detailed manuals for control systems we install, if a working engineering schematic was not provided to us).


Or, you can accept that, as Todd Howard says: "It just works".... because the game system says it does.....


And I suggest you search the forums for Ownership to see where THIS conversation is going, as it covering ground that has been brought up a dozen times before.... (and hopefully no one gets hit with the ban hammer this time).

But, yes, it works because the game system says it works, and it works in the basic way myself and others have put forward. It's all one giant confusing mess tied to a SIN, because the SIN is the very base piece of info you need. Its the cornerstone of the matrix, by the very basic mess of "without a SIN you can't get access to the matrix" <Barring black site access provided by Organized Crime, Fuchi, and Shadow Brokers> It's all there in the books if you dig deep enough. Its just not spelled out in an "A to B to C" fashion, nor is it done in the minute detail some want.
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Reaver

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« Reply #18 on: <01-06-17/2141:33> »
The problem is when Renraku has your gun.  They sure as hell aren't worried about you tracking them down to take it back and they'll just throw five dudes at the problem and say, "Hey, use the teamwork rules and figure this out."

Don't leave your gun at the scene of a crime :D

Ownership is the last of your worries! (Try all your Biometric data! Not to mention all that personal info that your smartlink has about you!!!)

And if you have to leave your gun at the scene of a crime, DROP your ownership to it! It takes far less time to transfer or drop ownership  then it does to trace back. (only the Owner gets to do so in a complex action, not someone trying to hack the registries!)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Kincaid

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« Reply #19 on: <01-06-17/2201:09> »
I'm very much in the, "It just works" camp, believe me, but if you go that route, you get a dozen, "it's magic" or "I'm in IT and this isn't how computers work, even in speculative fiction" responses.  (I often wonder which schools teach classes in speculative fiction computing.)  I'm the guy who wrote the blurb on ownership in Data Trails, largely as a response to the myriad threads on the topic in this forum back when everyone was wondering if they should quit the shadows and just mug the rich kids of instagram to steal their phones and thereby access their fortunes.  From a design standpoint, I worried that tying it to SIN would be too unwieldy from a paperwork perspective and run counter to the somewhat-subtle-but-deliberate shift in 5e back to the SINless default of 1-3e.  But hey, if tying it to a SIN works for your table, I promise the RAW police aren't going to knock down your door.  They only do that if you don't strictly follow the treading water rules.
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Kincaid

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« Reply #20 on: <01-06-17/2213:12> »
The problem is when Renraku has your gun.  They sure as hell aren't worried about you tracking them down to take it back and they'll just throw five dudes at the problem and say, "Hey, use the teamwork rules and figure this out."

Don't leave your gun at the scene of a crime :D

Ownership is the last of your worries! (Try all your Biometric data! Not to mention all that personal info that your smartlink has about you!!!)

And if you have to leave your gun at the scene of a crime, DROP your ownership to it! It takes far less time to transfer or drop ownership  then it does to trace back. (only the Owner gets to do so in a complex action, not someone trying to hack the registries!)

Excellent advice, but your plan didn't survive contact with the enemy and there's a chance you're making healing tests in the back of the van.  Big picture, traceable ownership is always going to be a much bigger hindrance than help for players.  Keep in mind that the forum population isn't that representative of Shadowrun players as a whole.  We're much more immersed in the setting and rules than most so we're the ones who are going to find the loophole to avoid getting traced.  But you can't write rules only for that crowd.  Random gaming groups taking a break from DnD play it too.  If Origins is any indication, an alarming number of people grab pregens and play CMPs as their introduction to the game.  Any sort of change that screws the players over is something I approach with a great deal of apprehension.  Baking in ways of screwing over novice players won't lead to fun games.
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

Reaver

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« Reply #21 on: <01-07-17/1150:07> »
Correction Kincaid:

"That's not how computers work in the real world".

To which I reply, "this isn't the Real World, there has been a large Technological divide between the 2 startig back in 1986"

How many bytes are in a pulse?? (The standard storage format of SR)

What is the machine code language in SR ??- example please!!


●●●●●
SR takes place in a world where you can plug your brain into a computer and mentally surf the matrix.

SR takes place in a world where code fragments can form together and become sapient.

SR takes place in a World where people can get replacement body parts that function BETTER then the originals without a loss of tactile sensation.


So trying to say "this isn't how crap works now" isn't a valid argument.

It works because the game says it works, just like the brain matrix, body replacements and pulses work.

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #22 on: <01-07-17/1324:22> »
By the way, here are a few of those prior discussions concerning the subject of ownership:

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21793.0
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19819.0
talk think matrix

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hulking_troll

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« Reply #24 on: <01-07-17/1916:43> »
Whoa that escalated quickly.

The how's and why's doesn't worry me, I am fine with the "it just works" mentality.

But for game mechanics, matrix perception seems the closest rule to determine the owner of a device, except i don't like how easy that makes things. I'm ruling in my game you need 3 marks to see who the registered owner is. That put some risk and skill into roll.

Thanks for your help everyone