[hulking_troll]

My memory tells me that you could do this in previous additions. I couldn't find rule for a mage in astral to disrupt spells and disable (or destroy) active foci.
There is the counterspell skill in the CRB p294, but is that the only way.
Could a foci or spell be targeted with a mana spell?
Cheers

[Kiirnodel]

Spells can't be hit by spells  (although you are correct that there is the option to use counterspelling to dispel them).

Active Foci are dual natured, so they can be targeted from the astral plane with mana spells. If they take sufficient damage they shut down, I forget the exact rules.

[hulking_troll]

Ok, I'm confused why is a season 5 mission asking for the GM (me) to do this with a NPC with NO disenchanting skill....
"a mage will be present in astral space. He will attempt to shut down any active Sustaining foci or active spells held in concentration in order to force them to be recast"

[DeathofVirtue]

If memory serves, it's astral combat or mana spells for the foci and for active spells it's an (Assensing)? test to notice them from the astral?(Really really tired citation needed)  (Depending on force, see detecting magic) then a counterspelling to reduce/deactivate the spell assuming it's detected.

[Kiirnodel]

Yeah... I just said that.

Counterspelling still works from astral space to shut down spells.

And DeathofVirtue brings up a good point that Astral Combat could also be used, in addition to mana spells.

[Reaver]

My memory tells me that you could do this in previous additions. I couldn't find rule for a mage in astral to disrupt spells and disable (or destroy) active foci.
There is the counterspell skill in the CRB p294, but is that the only way.
Could a foci or spell be targeted with a mana spell?
Cheers

You are correct, in previous editions an astral mage could do a whole lot of things, including nuking physical targets.... but that got changed between 3r and 4e.

Now, an astral mage can only target astral entities and constructs (which spells and foci are!).

To disrupt a sustained/quuckened spell, use counterspelling.

To disrupt a foci, you use astral combat or a mana spell. If I recall correctly, a foci has its Force in health boxes and resists spells with Force+Force. A desactivated foci can be reactivated with a simple action, but of course any spell it was sustaining ends right away. (And since it takes a simple action to reactivate, it causes the mage to choose between reactivating his foci, or casting a spell... which means it can become a game of foci keep-away really quickly!)

[DeathofVirtue]

Yeah... I just said that.

Counterspelling still works from astral space to shut down spells.

And DeathofVirtue brings up a good point that Astral Combat could also be used, in addition to mana spells.

  Yeah, not trying to step on toes, I was just trying to point out that this part of his reply to you made no sense and suspected he may not have understood you fully given the nature of his follow up question so I tried to clarify by showing "disenchanting" isn't even factored in via a step by step of the skills involved.  Addmitedly a shoddy step by step (Insomnia + Illness is a bitch for forming coherent thoughts and concise communication)  but hey we can't be on form all the time.

[Kiirnodel]

I did look into this more, to try and find more specific information about stats and whatnot. Firstly, hulking_troll, you are correct that it likely would have been easier to give the astral mage in the situation you stated the disenchanting skill.   Disenchanting specifically says it can be used from astral space to deactivate foci.

On the other hand, I couldn't find rules for damaging foci to force them to shut down... Reaver, do you have a source for your information? If I had to come up with a rule, use the Foci's Force in place of any Attribute, and I would actually use a normal "Condition Monitor" using 8 + half Force boxes of health (although I could be talked into 6+ like drones).

I would also say that Foci that are deactivated due to damage can't reactivate until the damage is healed. As we are talking about Astral damage, not physically breaking the Focus, it repairs itself over time (like one box per hour).

A rule like this would mean that using spells to damage a Focus would be effective, but not easy. And also wouldn't be a permanent drain on the affected mage (no permanent focus loss without full disjoining). I feel like there are rules for this though (at least prior to 4e, but I don't have easy access to books older than 4th).

[hulking_troll]

Thanks Kiirnodel,

I remember previous editions (2nd I think) that had rules for a mage to shut down foci and other things (like intercept a cast spell in astral and shut it down before it grounded out)... and other cool astral overwatch abilities to assist the team from astral.(something that was neatly removed with the counterspell ability)

But 5th ed seems to be lacking this "crunch" (which isn't a criticism BTW), I suspect the writer of the mission (and Reaver) also has fond memories of such abilities...

At this point (as I don't like going outside the RAW) I allow the astral mage to just counterspell any sustained spells and just fire off mana spells at anyone who decided to look into the astral to see what's going on. But I really like your rule for attacking foci if one of my players wanted to do such a thing.

Cheers again...

[Kiirnodel]

Yeah, the concept of "grounding" was removed between 3rd and 4th. There was fluff backing it, something about the way astral space and physical interact. I'm not sure on the details, though.

[Medicineman]

Grounding was removed in 3rd Edition (good Riddance)
since then there's a great ...."Rift" (? in Germany Ebenentrennung) which prevents ANY magic Action between Astral and Mundane Space.
No Magic, no Spells, no Nothing can affect the purely Mundane (which includes spells, since they're NOT Dual )
Spalls (and counterspelling) from the astral can only affect Dual beings (and active Foci which are dual, but not the spells ) or Astral beings !

>>>> I suspect the writer of the mission (and Reaver) also has fond memories of such abilities..

I often read that writers are......(hmmm, how to say it....) Grounded in 2nd and 3rd Ed Rules and are sometimes unfamiliar with 4A or even 5the Ed Rules which is ...unfortunate (in German suboptimal) as it lowers their reputation....
( maybe they should play 5th or 4a more often or watch the great tutorials on You tube....)

with a careful Dance
Medicineman

[Kiirnodel]

(which includes spells, since they're NOT Dual )

How exactly do you make a mundane spell? Spells are by definition magical subjects.

All spells leave behind astral signatures, which to me means that they have significant presence in Astral Space (more so than mundane auras). A projecting mage doesn't even leave behind a signature unless they do something significant (one of the examples is astral battle for instance).

The False Impression/Manascape spell specifically alters the astral appearance of a spell or astral form. This definitely sets the two as roughly equivalent in my book.

[Medicineman]

>>>> How exactly do you make a mundane spell?

How comes that physical Spell can't affect the Astral Space ?
How comes that you have to be either Astral or Dual to cast Manaspells in the Manaspace ?
It is not the Spells, but the being casting them.
If the caster is Mundane he's rexstricted to the Mundane space (and safe from Astral) if he's Astral Vice versa and if he's Dual than he's fair game for/from both

>>> All spells leave behind astral signatures,
living, mundane Beings too
and neither can they be "targeted " from the Astral space

with a Dual Dance
Medicineman

[Reaver]

I'll have to go digging througg the CRB again to find it, which means you'll have to wait till I get back to civilization (on site currently).

As I recall, its like 2 sentences long buried in either the Foci area of the book, or in the artifacing section, if that helps you narrow down your search.

[Kiirnodel]

>>> All spells leave behind astral signatures,
living, mundane Beings too
and neither can they be "targeted " from the Astral space

No, mundane beings don't leave behind astral signatures. Hell, an Astrally projecting mage doesn't leave a signature if he isn't doing anything special (like participating in Astral combat). Take a look at page 312 of the Core Rulebook.

Counterspelling is itself an Astral action (it uses the Magician's Astral limit). For most (if not all) spells, you would have to be astrally perceiving to be able to see the spell's aura. And the "astral segregation" that is emphasized in spells isn't mentioned at all in the counterspelling section.

And you completely ignored the part about Manascape, which treats spells the same as astral forms.

Now, I'm not saying this gives any sort of loophole that might allow astral projection to bleed over and affect physical beings. But spells are innately magical constructs, so I feel that dispelling a sustained spell is possible from astral space. Those Physical spells (or non-Astral Mana spells) may not be able to affect purely Astral entities, but I'm not convinced that that would mean they don't have some sort of existence astrally. In fact, as I pointed out from Astral Signatures, they have at least some presence there...