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Should i enforce alpha and beta augmentations?

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Shamie

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« on: <08-03-16/1502:17> »
Hello to all

My last campaign my players complained on the slow progress they made, we use the rules in missions so it was 5 karma/5000 nuyen per run, after lot of reading i realize that shadowrun works under the assumption the campaign is gonna last years so seeing my campaign only last 36 games tops i opted for a 5 karma reward but flat cost for stuff meaning it cost the same to raise agility 5-6 than 9-10.

Now im torn with deltware, Chrome flesh said that there is only 9 clinics in the world that do deltware. However in my game player never care for anything that wasnt either normal or delta. Either they took the cheapest option or they save until delta because anything in between set them back in saving that it wasnt worth it.

I read in other forums that most DM make delta only available on a quest and ignore the rules that said if they roll availability they get the item. Has anyone has experience in that? Do player find keeping the best toys out of reach fun on the specific of Deltaware?

Do the enforcing, meaning barring the better delta option, of beta and alpha bring some kind of flavor to shadowrun im missing if i just let them buy delta? If my player hate it that i limit the access to toy they saw were available (until chrome flesh drop that line) then is there any good reason not to bend?

I meant it is not like the gauss riffle, that thing is a game changer but Synaptic booster already does the same exact thing than other bunch of things (spells, drugs, wired, adept powers) just cost less essence wise or it is the main thing of certain builds. Example the adept in my last game who complained on the slow advancement because he was never near enough for his synaptic booster which was neccesary for his build because adept reflexes were so costly.

As a side note i tend to lean a little on the pink mohawk than the mirror shades spectrum when dming.

Thanks :)
« Last Edit: <08-03-16/1508:25> by Shamie »

Shadowjack

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« Reply #1 on: <08-03-16/1532:37> »
Many players feel that the rewards in Shadowrun 5e tend to be very low. I don't play missions so I don't know exactly how it works, but in my group we tend to start out with small rewards and scale up pretty big. We also don't do very long campaigns most of the time. Deltaware is supposed to be something you can't easily purchase, I think it's more of a special event. It is your game though, so you can make it freely available if you like. If the players are only willing to take standard and delta grade ware I think it's quite prohibitive, but I suppose that's their perrogative. Going back to run rewards, I think you should try experimenting a bit. Think about this: If a player has an attribute at rating 3, it costs 20 karma to reach rating 4. How impactful is that improvement? How much growth do you want the PC's to make during a campaign? How long will the campaign be? If it's a 10 session campaign, 10 to 20 karma per session is not going to break the game, but if the campaign is going to last 40 sessions, it will be pretty serious. Also, if you do give out large amounts of karma you should consult the training time table in the core book, that way advancement will be better monitored. As for nuyen, you can give quite a bit of that too. I like to have a wide range of payouts so the game feels realistic and immersive. Getting roughly the same payment each run seems strange to me, so I vary it quite a lot. I do think too that it is a very good idea to occasionally give a run offer that has a massive payment, such as 50k, 100k, 250k, etc. A lot of people worry a lot about the balance between karma and nuyen rewards but I think it gets in the way of immersion and my group doesn't care about equality in growth, we just care about the campaign. The bottom line is that you're going to need to experiment and find what your group enjoys.
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Shamie

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« Reply #2 on: <08-03-16/1538:21> »
For karma i applied a flat cost and did the calculation (i dont have my notebook with me now) as to calculate that if a player doesnt spent it on anything else they will get 15 points of attributes to allocate as every point of attributes cost the same.

Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: <08-03-16/1954:46> »
This is going to be up to you are your table.

Personally, I GM a lot, and many of my campaigns last years. (Helps that I have a stable of players in my co-workers... and we are often away from our homes and families for extended periods of time, with not else to do).

I stick pretty close to the rules for things like ware levels and karma advancement for skills and attributes.... mostly because that is what I am used to...

Part of the issues seem to come about if you have a player base used to other games, as Shadowrun's 'advancement' system is SO different from other game systems.

If you look at the majority of games out there, they use a 'Level' system. Earn enough XP, you 'level up' and gain a bunch of benefits. (Better attacks, better defenses, more HP.... yadda yadda yadda). SR doesn't run on this system.

SR advancement is very slow, usually only a single skill or stat at a time, which means only adding a single dice to a single test (or a limited amount of tests) each time; which doesn't really affect the out comes by a great deal.

This is both its strength and its weakness. In SR you can throw a just made character into a group of seasoned pros (300+ karma) and that 'newbie' has a fair chance of surviving: simply because most everything else in SR is static as well. A mook is always a mook, and always a piece of fodder to a Runner...

This is something you just can't do in a 'level' system as the opponets you fight in a level system generally scale with the characters.... So throwing a 1st level character in a party of 10th level adventurers is a death sentence to that first level character!

From my personal experience, if you make the purchase of all the 'best stuff' too easy, it starts throwing a monkey wrench into everything else. Iften leading GMs to play a game of 'power creep' that is more suited to a level system....

Mooks go from throwing 6-8 dice and armed with crappy armor and weapons to throwing 12-18 dice and armed with advanced mil-spec gear... And so on and so on...


By enforcing the rarity of gear and ware, you make gaining these items special and memorable, instead a case of wandering into the closest body-shop for the next upgrade like one would do buying a new pair of pants.

Also, keep in mind that each level of ware increases just HOW MUCH ware a character can cram in. Base level ware limts a character to 6 essence worth. Deltaware limits them to 9 essence of ware... basically a 50% increase in the number of augments they can have! Which can also throw your games out of 'balance' (for those that strive for this mythical concept).


And some tables are fine with that.
So really, its up to you and how you want to run your game.
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Blue Rose

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« Reply #4 on: <08-03-16/2033:36> »
Adept reflexes are cheap for what you get.  Very cheap.  Its analogs cost buckets of nuyen and loads of essence.  You can initiate and boost your magic rating to get more PP on an adept far more easily than you can save up a few hundred thousand nuyen.

If your character is not functional out of character creation because you need to save up hundreds of thousands of nuyen for some piece of equipment this player has deemed necessary for their build.  Also, for initiative boosters, there are always drugs.

And the Thunderstruck isn't such a game changer.  It's good, but not so much better than any other assault cannon.

Anyways, deltaware.  Delta-grade cyberware is not just some availability number.  Officially, it doesn't exist.  There are so few clinics that can do it and they are such a secret that its' availability is a meaningless number, and giving it a number was a mistake.  Unless you sell your soul to a corp to an extreme degree, you are not getting it.  Availability is a rule of thumb, but in the case of delta?  You can point the finger at (almost) exactly where it comes from and exactly how hard it is to get.  Even stepping inside a delta clinic is a huge risk for a corp.  Getting in there for a delta grade datajack is not a smaller feat than getting one can of flamethrower fuel.

Alpha and beta are your high-end tools.  They are your friends.  They are good and useful and lets you do so much more.  Thing about Shadowrun is, there are so many things you will never be able to afford.  There's always something bigger, badder, and shinier to buy.  You will never 'max out' a character because with a million more nuyen, you can squeeze out a little bit more.  If your players go in with the mindset that they'll take the best of the best of the best only, ever?  That's not going to work.

Reaver: It's not a 50% increase in the amount of 'ware you can have.  It's a 100% increase, because you're cutting 'ware costs in half.  Add in biocompatibility, reducing the essence cost of deltaware to x.4, and now it's a 150% increase.  Toss in Adapsin and it gets even higher.

Shamie

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« Reply #5 on: <08-03-16/2149:02> »
This is going to be up to you are your table.

Personally, I GM a lot, and many of my campaigns last years. (Helps that I have a stable of players in my co-workers... and we are often away from our homes and families for extended periods of time, with not else to do).

Well my games is once per week for a 18 to 36 session campaigns assuming nobody skips and we continue after winter break so a 15 medium or a 25 if we continue after said winter break and rl life comes up or a run takes more than one session. After that summer break starts and we finish and play something else next year (summer here is jannuary to march)

Part of the issues seem to come about if you have a player base used to other games, as Shadowrun's 'advancement' system is SO different from other game systems.

If you look at the majority of games out there, they use a 'Level' system. Earn enough XP, you 'level up' and gain a bunch of benefits. (Better attacks, better defenses, more HP.... yadda yadda yadda). SR doesn't run on this system.

SR advancement is very slow, usually only a single skill or stat at a time, which means only adding a single dice to a single test (or a limited amount of tests) each time; which doesn't really affect the out comes by a great deal.

This is both its strength and its weakness. In SR you can throw a just made character into a group of seasoned pros (300+ karma) and that 'newbie' has a fair chance of surviving: simply because most everything else in SR is static as well. A mook is always a mook, and always a piece of fodder to a Runner...

This is something you just can't do in a 'level' system as the opponets you fight in a level system generally scale with the characters.... So throwing a 1st level character in a party of 10th level adventurers is a death sentence to that first level character!

My group dont play D&D and i never run it we mostly play WoD and FFG Star wars. In NWOD they gain 1 to 3 points of XP per session but skill cost 2, skill specialties cost 1, attributes cost 4 etc.

And in FFG i give them 25 xp per session which is apparently the maximun they can get.

So it doesnt use levels neither but everytime they get XP they feel they can buy something for their character but in shadowrun everything its soo expensive and to them there so many cool stuff they wanna buy aside from the normal attributes, skill etc but cant because of how costly and how little they gain (like ally spirits, or focci)


By enforcing the rarity of gear and ware, you make gaining these items special and memorable, instead a case of wandering into the closest body-shop for the next upgrade like one would do buying a new pair of pants.


Adept reflexes are cheap for what you get.  Very cheap.  Its analogs cost buckets of nuyen and loads of essence.  You can initiate and boost your magic rating to get more PP on an adept far more easily than you can save up a few hundred thousand nuyen.

Uhh not really for reflex 3 you need 3.5 power point which is more than half of the character at chargen and afterwards in initiation it cost 48 karma (unless they also need to raise magic, i cant remember right now if they do for adepts) which by mission thats 10 games if they dont spend it on nothign else which is more than half my promedium campaign. As for the essence, that not important to the adept he mostly has passive powers that arent affected by essence lost. I guess its a money vs karma long walk.

And the Thunderstruck isn't such a game changer.  It's good, but not so much better than any other assault cannon.

Anyways, deltaware.  Delta-grade cyberware is not just some availability number.  Officially, it doesn't exist.  There are so few clinics that can do it and they are such a secret that its' availability is a meaningless number, and giving it a number was a mistake.  Unless you sell your soul to a corp to an extreme degree, you are not getting it.  Availability is a rule of thumb, but in the case of delta?  You can point the finger at (almost) exactly where it comes from and exactly how hard it is to get.  Even stepping inside a delta clinic is a huge risk for a corp.  Getting in there for a delta grade datajack is not a smaller feat than getting one can of flamethrower fuel.

Alpha and beta are your high-end tools.  They are your friends.  They are good and useful and lets you do so much more.  Thing about Shadowrun is, there are so many things you will never be able to afford.  There's always something bigger, badder, and shinier to buy.  You will never 'max out' a character because with a million more nuyen, you can squeeze out a little bit more.  If your players go in with the mindset that they'll take the best of the best of the best only, ever?  That's not going to work.

From my personal experience, if you make the purchase of all the 'best stuff' too easy, it starts throwing a monkey wrench into everything else. Iften leading GMs to play a game of 'power creep' that is more suited to a level system....

I think this right here is the root of the problem, when we read the book (my last campaign finished before i got chrome flesh) when we read delta ware it wasnt as this massive secret thing, we got the idea it was just an expensive alternative to the normal augmentation in the same vein the iphone is a expensive alternative to the other phones. Yes is expensive but not a state secret but then i read that on chrome flesh and that threw a monkey wrench on things.

I use the example of the gauss riffle because i gave them after a difficult mission a gauss riffle which was broken irreparably and only got 1 shot and they look at that as if i was giving them the holiest of swords to play with but deltware? They just think its expensive ware and nothing else because of our impression from the corebook and i dont really know that i can get that genie back in the bottle.


Mooks go from throwing 6-8 dice and armed with crappy armor and weapons to throwing 12-18 dice and armed with advanced mil-spec gear... And so on and so on...

And some tables are fine with that.
So really, its up to you and how you want to run your game.

Well this is what im worried about, i want them to have fun but i dont want the wreck my game either and make it running the game a drag to me. I cant really ask them much about this because they dont have a concept of balance because they barely know the rules after 1 full campaign because of how heavy the system is.
One thing i have though about is maybe allow them to exchange the full price of their previous ware for a better one (said they can exchange their standard cyberarm for alpha version at a price discount of the price)? Sort of a middleground.
« Last Edit: <08-03-16/2252:40> by Shamie »

Blue Rose

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« Reply #6 on: <08-03-16/2332:39> »
Uhh not really for reflex 3 you need 3.5 power point which is more than half of the character at chargen and afterwards in initiation it cost 48 karma (unless they also need to raise magic, i cant remember right now if they do for adepts) which by mission thats 10 games if they dont spend it on nothign else which is more than half my promedium campaign. As for the essence, that not important to the adept he mostly has passive powers that arent affected by essence lost. I guess its a money vs karma long walk.
Karma is generally valued at about 2000 nuyen.

Let's use your 48 karma as the standard.  That's 96k to get the equivalent of Wired Reflexes 3, no essence cost, and you can get that right out the gate.  Standard grade wired reflexes 3 cost more than double that at 217k, along with almost all of your essence.  You cannot get it used to lower the cost, because it would then cost more essence than you have (unless you have biocompatibility, in which case it's still even closer to all your essence).  You cannot start off with it at all due to availability, short of Restricted Gear, which makes the price tag even more painful, now at 282,100 nuyen for standard grade.  338,520 nuyen for alpha grade, which takes the hit down to 4 essence, or 3.5 if you also have biocompatibility.  Counting the 15 karma in qualities necessary to get there, we're talking an equivalent of 185 karma to get those wired reflexes in a way that still takes up just over half your essence.

And essence is a much more precious resource than power points; you can't sit around singing kumbaya to get more of a soul.

Also, keep in mind just how powerful initiative is.  On average, Wired Reflexes 3 or Improved Reflexes 3 is going to be a whopping +14.5 to your initiative.  That's a damn good initiative roll on a muggle, and it's a full action and a half on top of whatever you were rolling to start with.

That said, it's rarely worthwhile for an adept to start at rank 3.  Usually, it's best to start at rank 2, then advance to rank 3 after initiating, which is dead simple to do, unlike going back and upgrading 'ware at a later date.

Adepts' Improved Reflexes are probably the cheapest and most powerful initiative booster in the game, except for the Increase Reflexes spell.
I think this right here is the root of the problem, when we read the book (my last campaign finished before i got chrome flesh) when we read delta ware it wasnt as this massive secret thing, we got the idea it was just an expensive alternative to the normal augmentation in the same vein the iphone is a expensive alternative to the other phones. Yes is expensive but not a state secret but then i read that on chrome flesh and that threw a monkey wrench on things.

I use the example of the gauss riffle because i gave them after a difficult mission a gauss riffle which was broken irreparably and only got 1 shot and they look at that as if i was giving them the holiest of swords to play with but deltware? They just think its expensive ware and nothing else because of our impression from the corebook and i dont really know that i can get that genie back in the bottle.
That's a discussion to be had with the group on the lore of the game.  Giving deltaware such a clear and, quite frankly, low number on how to get it was very much a mistake.

And honestly?  Most of the time, alphaware is the most practical upgrade.  Give 20% more, get 25% more.  Or 40% more if you have biocompatibility.  Past that, you have some severe diminishing returns, and the price tags get so high that you're not likely to get there without selling your soul to Ares.

adzling

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« Reply #7 on: <08-04-16/1638:48> »
Short Answer: Definitely.

Slightly Longer Answer: I think you're problem is in run rewards, they are too low (missions is insanely cheap with it's run rewards).

Some context: I have been playing Srun since 1e and running my current 5e campaign that meets twice a month for about 18 months.
I typically give out anywhere from 4-8 karma / $4,000-$35,000 per run with most runs being either one or two sessions.

There are specific deltaware clinics called out in the various settings books and we use them as the only deltaware clinics in-game. Whether a player has access  to them depends upon who owes them a favor and where they are in the world (our campaign spans the globe).

Regardless of whether they have access to a deltaware (or betaware) clinic they still have to succeed in their availability test to acquire the ware.

If they don't have access to the right grade of clinic they can't even roll for availability, there's no-one to install it.

In our game two characters have some minor deltaware with all the rest of the team's ware a mixture of used, regular, alpha and beta ware.

Our player karma totals run from @80 up to @200.

Hope that all helps!

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #8 on: <08-04-16/1710:41> »
Hm I think I know what your players feel.
The players are afraid that if they use their hard-earned cash on an Alpha-grade toy, you will eventually change your mind and have the delta-grade become available after all. Thus they have just "wasted" precious essence and cash on the inferior Alphaware.
And even if you tell them that Deltagrade wont be possible, some might still think that you will "come around" and change your mind- thus having all their cash sitting unspent and useless on their credsticks.
I have seen it on a smaller scale in my group. players wanting a super cool commlink- are often tempted into buying the meta-link at character creation. and then save up for the rat7 afterwards and trying to get it as fast as possible. They dont want to "waste" cash on a rat 6 commlink only to have it replaced by a rating 7 in a few game sessions.

Maybe you could tell your players that Deltagrade isnt available right now. But if they ever should get their hands on a delta clinic they would most likely have done some major important run. And therefore are allowed a refund of their "inferior" ware. (resell at original price).
that way your players arent loosing anything by going alpha/betaware and cant still hope for that delta ware clinic some time in the future. 

Blue Rose

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« Reply #9 on: <08-04-16/1807:39> »
Getting alpha isn't a waste of essence... sort of.

Essence holes are one of those legacy rules that I don't think ever made it to print in 5e, but it's still around.  If you have a piece of 'ware removed, you don't get the essence back, but it leaves a 'hole' in your essence that you can use to fit other 'ware.  So, if you have a piece of betaware that took up .7 essence, have it removed and replaced with something that takes .5 essence, you have a .2 essence hole to play around with.

...

That's what she said.

>.>

adzling

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« Reply #10 on: <08-05-16/1050:28> »
essence holes are a thing.

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #11 on: <08-05-16/1102:25> »
essence holes are a thing.

Technically, they're a lack of a thing.  ;D

I'll just be over here where there's cover...


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adzling

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« Reply #12 on: <08-05-16/1736:00> »
Summon Errata Team GO!

Coyote

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« Reply #13 on: <08-05-16/2156:23> »
essence holes are a thing.

Technically, they're a lack of a thing.  ;D

I'll just be over here where there's cover...

As long as it's real cover, and not a cover hole. Cause that's a thing also.

Spooky

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« Reply #14 on: <08-06-16/0052:13> »
The way I phrase it to my table is that buying used is like buying food from the dollar store, standard is like buying from walmart, alpha is like buying from savemart/safeway, beta is like buying from raley's, and delta is like buying from bristol farms. In other words, used, standard, and alpha can be found in most any place that's big enough to have a shop, beta is only found in big cities, and delta requires searching many cities for that one shop. Hope that helps.
Spooky, what do you do this pass? Shoot him with my thunderstruck gauss rifle. (Rolls)  8 hits. Does that blow his head off?

 

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