NEWS

The Extreme Price of Being an Archer

  • 77 Replies
  • 20559 Views

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #30 on: <07-02-16/0204:58> »
...I wasn't aware that the Missions FAQ also served as a forum for errata.

I will take this matter there,

As far as I'm aware, it isn't actually for errata, mainly for clarifications that aren't clear in the books. There are a couple of cases where they clarify discrepancies between books or have changed some values to better balance for the game. But your worst case scenario for this is that the response is "that isn't really a question for Missions" so you would be no worse off. Not like their going to arbitrarily increase the price of something because you bothered to ask about it. (or would they, bwa haha)

My recommendation would be to post it as "this price seems weird, should the price of the Ares Monotip really be Rating times 30 or should it be like the alternate arrow heads from R&G that are an additional value on top of the normal arrow price? Like +30 nuyen?"

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #31 on: <07-02-16/0314:41> »
Some quick and dirty math tells me the price of monotips is pretty close.

Here's why:

Monowire costs ¥1000 per meter, or ¥10 per centimeter.

Most hunting arrow heads are 4 to 6cm in length, with 2 to 3 points (some are even 4 pointed, but most I saw were 3 pointed).

So, if it has 3 points, each 4cm long, that is 12 cm of wire to cover each blade length.

So the cost of the monowire alone is ¥120. That does not take the cost of the arrowhead nor the costs of mounting the wire to the arrowhead into consideration....

So I have a feeling the 30x(rating) stands....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 925
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #32 on: <07-02-16/0351:16> »
...according to the description in Hard Targets:

Quote
"These broadhead arrows are sharpened to a single molecule thickness at the edge and excel at punching through modern armour. They provide -2 AP when used as ammunition"


(emphasis mine)

There is no mention of monowire at all.

The last sentence is also a bit odd as what other use than ammunition would you get them for?

As Carpe Omnis in his Shadowrun Armoury overview put it:

Quote
"Monotip arrows are almost ten times more expensive than something that is more effective..."

Exactly, why would anyone flush that much money down the loo when other less expensive heads are just as effective or better?  An explosive head already grants -1 to AP in addition to +2P and only costs 35¥ at Rating 10 compared  to 300¥ for just a flat -2 AP.

No, something seems amiss here.

Forsaken daughter is watching you

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #33 on: <07-02-16/0443:07> »
All in all you are better of to just ignore the mono arrows and instead use the rules for custom ammo to give an explosive head more AP
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #34 on: <07-02-16/0516:56> »
Not sure you can "hand-load" arrows...

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #35 on: <07-02-16/0524:05> »
An explosive arrow? Most certainly ;D
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #36 on: <07-02-16/0527:24> »
I'm assuming when you say "custom ammo" you mean the Hand Loads from Hard Targets?

That's bullets, so not really...

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #37 on: <07-02-16/0531:51> »
The texts speaks of ammo or ammunition. As GM I'd allow that to apply for bullets, arrows, gyrojet projectiles and bolts.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #38 on: <07-02-16/0542:52> »
I'm assuming when you say "custom ammo" you mean the Hand Loads from Hard Targets?

That's bullets, so not really...

Speaking as someone who hand loads, it should be possible to 'hand load' some arrow heads.

You'll have an issue with costs, as generally speaking, arrows and arrowheads are a lot more rare then buying lead, powder (and in the case of bass rounds, the brass and caps).


BUT, also keep in mind you are talking a VERY risky process. (Hand loading in general) where a simple muss-read of a chart turns a handgun into a hand held BOMB.
(Just ask my S&W King Cobra. I blew it up with a .38 special round. The explosion split the cylinder open like an orange peal, blew the top site into collar bone, and made a fantastic light show.)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #39 on: <07-02-16/0553:25> »
Speaking on RAW: Bolts and Arrows aren't categorized as "Ammo" they are on the chart with the bows, while Ammo is its own table in the SR5 Core.

Additionally, the text is very obviously talking about bullets, and refers to the modifications in the groups of 10, just like bullets. And the term "hand load" is a term specifically about the manufacture of bullets. It is the process of putting together the various components of the cartridge and assembling them yourself. You get the benefits of the handloading (+1DV or -1AP) because you are customizing the propellant, bullet, casing, etc to personal preference and the weapon itself.


You could argue that an archer could do something similar, but with the way archery is already laid out (with Ratings having a direct impact on all of these values already, and Rating being tied to the archer's abilities) you could also very easily argue that the effects of "handloading" is already built into Archery. Plus, as you pointed out, if you could hand load an explosive arrow and get more effect for less money, it even further invalidates the whole system.

I haven't personally handled firearms and I don't know, in depth, the process of handloading. So I don't know how it affects the bullets' accuracy, penetrating effectiveness, or damage. But I am a practiced archer, and I've put together my own arrows. And unless you just make it wrong, there isn't a whole lot to change...

EDIT: Apart from the arrow-head which already has rules for having different effects, so I can't in good faith call that an additional change.
« Last Edit: <07-02-16/0555:11> by Kiirnodel »

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 925
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #40 on: <07-02-16/0557:45> »
Quote
BUT, also keep in mind you are talking a VERY risky process. (Hand loading in general) where a simple muss-read of a chart turns a handgun into a hand held BOMB.
(Just ask my S&W King Cobra. I blew it up with a .38 special round. The explosion split the cylinder open like an orange peal, blew the top site into collar bone, and made a fantastic light show.)
...ouch, Yeah, I think Leela will leave that job up to Goober.  Plastic explosives, grenades, and dynamite are dangerous enough to play around with.

Quote
All in all you are better of to just ignore the mono arrows

...yeah I took the Monotips off the character's gear list for now and just got more explosive heads.  +2P and -1AP is better than just -2 AP. .

Also got one of those mini crossbows with Narcojet bolts.
« Last Edit: <07-02-16/0559:53> by kyoto kid »
Forsaken daughter is watching you

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #41 on: <07-02-16/0741:03> »
If you are interested, I will post the steps and tools needed to actually hand load shells if anyone is interested.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #42 on: <07-02-16/0935:25> »
@Reaver
Please do.

@Kiirnodel
Ok let me rephrase that:
You make a normal Build&Repair test to create customized arrows. To determine the needed effects, thresholds and times you can take inspiration from the hand load table.  :)
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #43 on: <07-02-16/1037:42> »
Tools needed:

A cap punch (sized to the ammo you are loading, only 4 basic sizes)
A loading press. (Good ones come with a punches built in)
A brass shaver. (It shaves brass. Duh :P)

A grain scale (a scale that expressly deals in Grain weights)
A Dye for the caliber of round to be loaded. The dye fits into the press and controls how deep a lead gets seated into the brass.

A powder dispenser/hopper (used to percisely measure out a consistant weight of powder every time. Probably THE most important tool next to the press)

A shell hammer. (Used to open up unfired rounds to check the powder load. Called a hammer because it looks exactly like a hammer!)
Leads of the right caliber that you want to load.
Brass casings of the caliber you want to load. (Either saved brass from fired rounds, or new brass)
Powder. (Pick your brand, there are DOZENS! All with different properties. Some burn fast and hot, some are low pressure, some are meant for humid climates...)
●●●

First step. Inspect, clean and prepare the brass:
 You want to carefully inspect each and every brass for signs of fatigue, dents, cracks or 'flat sides'. Remember that a bullet is only a pressure release difference from a bomb! Any signs of fatigue, thin walling, flat sides, cuts or dents is a weakness that turns a projectile into a bomb.
Cleaning should be done with a weak soap (I use dish soap). To remove any dirt or left over powder from the inside of the shell. Allow 36 to 72 hours to air dry. (This is where you use the punch to remove the spent cap).

Second step. Shaving and capping: if the brass has been already used, you use the brass shaver to 'shave' the brass of burrs and thin tipping. It takes off microns of brass at a time. Next you put in the new percussion cap with the press. At this time, you also press the brass into the dye to slightly expand the lip of the brass so the lead can seal it air tight. (During firing the heat and pressure straighten and compress the brass lip through friction)

Next step. Weigh out your powder. This is where you can f**k up and kill yourself (like I almost did). Check, double check, then check again that you know the weight of the powder, BASED OFF THE BRAND NAME YOU ARE USING!!! Do not ever assume 2 powders (even from the same brand) are the same. You do, you're dead. This takes the most time, you are litterally playing with the dispenser and your scale. There is NO room for error here. If the Brand says you need 3.67 grains of powder, you use 3.67 grains. Not 3.68 or 3.70.... its 3.67 get it right! Or lose a hand, if not more.

Last step. Pressing the shell: Once you have your hopper loaded and set to the correct weight, things really motor along now. Simply put the brass in the press, pour in the powder, set the lead, and pull down on the press handle all the way down. Finished.

****

Why did I stress the powder so much? Simple, lets go back to my dead King Cobra.... it was a S&W King Cobra .357 magnum. (For those that don't know. A .38sp and a .357mag are the exact same size of shell, the difference is that a .357mag is longer. Thus if you own a .357mag you can shoot .38sp rounds from it no problem.)

In my case, I was using Bullseye Hot powder. For a .38sp shell you need 2.56 gr of powder.
But I read the table for Bullseye Humid, which called for 3.97gr.

So I loaded the .38sp with 3.97grains. When I pulled the trigger..... BOOOM! gun exploded and the rear site found its home in my collarbone. For Bullseye Hot. A .357mag load is 2.99 grains. That extra .98 grains of powder exceeded the tollerance for the harden stainless steel of the cylinder, splitting it open.

To understand just how little powder can make a huge difference keep this conversion in mind:

1 grain = 0.0648 grams.

In my case. 0.06 grams of powder turned a gun into a bomb. A weight difference that you couldn't even feel.




Edited because I missed a tool (dye) and where you use it, and when.
« Last Edit: <07-02-16/1713:26> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

MijRai

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1845
  • Kane's Understudy
« Reply #44 on: <07-02-16/1234:58> »
Uh...  You guys do realize why monotip arrows are cheaper than explosive, right?  Explosive arrows explode.  They're one-and-done items.  Monotip can be recovered for as long as you put the effort into it.  They also don't detonate, which makes them stealthier, among other things. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?