[belaran]

Hi,

I'm just trying to check my understanding of the rules here, is not spotty. So  my PC, a rigger, is jumped into his vehicule (a VTOL). So he is in VR, hot stim, has the usual initiative bonuses, plus +2d for matrix action. The vehicule has a turret with a machine gun, so when he fires with it he uses (Gunnery + Logic) [Accuracy] - and it's a complex action (not a simple one).

Question 1) is - does the +2d for matrix action applies ? Technically, it's NOT a matrix action, but it could be argued he should get the bonus "in exchange" of this being a complex action...

Question 2) is - does is control rig bonus applies to the limit - thus making the test (Gunnery + Logic) [Accuracy + Control Rig Level].

Side question about control rig 3): in the rule it states that the control rig adds its level to all the vehicule limits, but I've also heard in the Critical Glitch Podcast that it adds its level to the dice pool, but I could not find that in the core rulebook (1st printing). Can you either confirm or infirm this ?

Thansk !!!

[FancyDerek]

#2) Under Control Rig in the cyberware section:
 When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests

Gunnery is a Vehicle Skill therefore you get the rating of the control rig as a DP bonus.

[ClaytonCross]

Question 1) is - does the +2d for matrix action applies ? Technically, it's NOT a matrix action, but it could be argued he should get the bonus "in exchange" of this being a complex action...

-Actually all driving tests AND Gunnery are considered matrix actions while jumped in (SR5 p266). This raises an argument though since the control rig says it adds +1 to matrix actions, the matrix section says it adds +2 for matrix actions while in hot sim. So you can say specific over rules general and its +1 (SR5 p451), you can say its a typo and the matrix hot sim is +2 (SR5 p230), or you can say its a hardware bonus of +1 and a hot sim of +2 for a total of plus 3. Most GMs rule +2 because if +3 riggers can be better than deckers in the matrix and if +1 why would you ever go hot sim and risk death for a 33% chance for 1 hit.

Question 2) is - does is control rig bonus applies to the limit - thus making the test (Gunnery + Logic) [Accuracy + Control Rig Level].

- Gunnery +rig bonus(SR5 p451) +2 hotsim +logic  [Accuracy + rig bonus(SR5 p266)]

Side question about control rig 3): in the rule it states that the control rig adds its level to all the vehicle limits, but I've also heard in the Critical Glitch Podcast that it adds its level to the dice pool, but I could not find that in the core rule book (1st printing). Can you either confirm or infirm this ?

-Its in there I have the pages marked at home but not with me now (Edited into equation above). They are spread out which makes it annoying.

[ClaytonCross]

Added relevant page numbers to my previous entry.

[Fabe]

Side question about control rig 3): in the rule it states that the control rig adds its level to all the vehicle limits, but I've also heard in the Critical Glitch Podcast that it adds its level to the dice pool, but I could not find that in the core rule book (1st printing). Can you either confirm or infirm this ?

-Its in there I have the pages marked at home but not with me now (Edited into equation above). They are spread out which makes it annoying.

Its in the gear section om page 452. the entry for the control rig says it adds its rating as a die pool bonus. My question is does the control rig add to both the the limit and the die pool or does it only add to one of them and one of sections is wrong.

[忍]

Question 2) is - does is control rig bonus applies to the limit - thus making the test (Gunnery + Logic) [Accuracy + Control Rig Level].

- Gunnery +rig bonus(SR5 p451) +2 hotsim +logic  [Accuracy + rig bonus(SR5 p266)]

Logic + Gunnery + Control Rig Rating + 2 for hotsim [Accuracy + Control Rig Rating]

Is this what you mean? I've rewritten for improved readability.

[Aaron]

I think if you're firing via control rig and in hot sim, you'd get the bonus. Control Device is, after all, a Matrix Action.

If you're firing the weapon without Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Agility + 2) and your limit would be [Accuracy + Control Rig rating].

If you're firing with Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Logic + 2) and your limit would be [Sensor + Control Rig rating].

[Tym Jalynsfein]

I think if you're firing via control rig and in hot sim, you'd get the bonus. Control Device is, after all, a Matrix Action.

If you're firing the weapon without Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Agility + 2) and your limit would be [Accuracy + Control Rig rating].

If you're firing with Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Logic + 2) and your limit would be [Sensor + Control Rig rating].

In my opinion, if you are jumped into the Vehicle/Drone, and are firing the weapon without sensor targeting, then you are firing blind and will be using the rules for firing blind. The Sensors are, after all, how you perceive when jumped in. Sensor targeting will of course require the use of your Logic Attribute. If you are behind the weapon itself and are using Mk 1 Eyeballs, then you are manually firing the weapon and would use your Standard Attack Rolls (Using Agility).      

[ClaytonCross]

Question 2) is - does is control rig bonus applies to the limit - thus making the test (Gunnery + Logic) [Accuracy + Control Rig Level].

Gunnery +rig bonus(SR5 p451) +2 hotsim +logic  [Accuracy + rig bonus(SR5 p266)]

Logic + Gunnery + Control Rig Rating + 2 for hotsim [Accuracy + Control Rig Rating]

Is this what you mean? I've rewritten for improved readability.

Yes, that is correct.

[ClaytonCross]

I think if you're firing via control rig and in hot sim, you'd get the bonus. Control Device is, after all, a Matrix Action.

If you're firing the weapon without Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Agility + 2) and your limit would be [Accuracy + Control Rig rating].

If you're firing with Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Logic + 2) and your limit would be [Sensor + Control Rig rating].

1.Sensor targeting is not about using the sensors, you always use the sensors when gunning and rigging. Its about letting the drone auto control weapons. (Think of it a Golden Eye auto aim, but crappy) So in this case your not just talking sensor quality but computer recognition and over ride. Its usually better to aim your self, but if you have a crappy gun you can use it to "auto-aim" its low accuracy. That is the intent of Sensor targeting. Not to cripple good weapons.
2.Gunnery while jumped in is ALWAYS a matrix action and logic.
3.Gunnery using remote is ALWAYS logic.
4.Gunnery with hands on the gun is agility.
My point is if you jumped in you get the rig bonus to pool and limit. If your not jumped in you don't. Its already complicated enough that I use a spread sheet with six rows for basic gunnery with my rigger. I don't need it more complicated.lol

[Banshee]

I think if you're firing via control rig and in hot sim, you'd get the bonus. Control Device is, after all, a Matrix Action.

If you're firing the weapon without Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Agility + 2) and your limit would be [Accuracy + Control Rig rating].

If you're firing with Sensor targeting, your dice pool would be (Gunnery + Logic + 2) and your limit would be [Sensor + Control Rig rating].

1.Sensor targeting is not about using the sensors, you always use the sensors when gunning and rigging. Its about letting the drone auto control weapons. (Think of it a Golden Eye auto aim, but crappy) So in this case your not just talking sensor quality but computer recognition and over ride. Its usually better to aim your self, but if you have a crappy gun you can use it to "auto-aim" its low accuracy. That is the intent of Sensor targeting. Not to cripple good weapons.
2.Gunnery while jumped in is ALWAYS a matrix action and logic.
3.Gunnery using remote is ALWAYS logic.
4.Gunnery with hands on the gun is agility.
My point is if you jumped in you get the rig bonus to pool and limit. If your not jumped in you don't. Its already complicated enough that I use a spread sheet with six rows for basic gunnery with my rigger. I don't need it more complicated.lol

ok first Aaron is not one to toot his own horn too much  but when it comes to anything remotely matrix action like you can assume what he says is about as good as your going to get when it comes to rules interpretations since he wrote the original framework they are based on ... so don't discount it so freely

1. if I read your statement correctly, yes you are always using sensors but not necessarily targeting with them and that is the difference
2. no ... Logic is used ONLY when you are using Passive Targeting per CRB pg 184 and changes the limit to Sensor rating, ALL other situations use Agility with Accuracy as the limit ... this part has nothing to do with being a rigger or being jumped in or anything else for that matter ... anyone using a senor equipped device to make an attack can choose to use passive targeting, but obviously anyone with a control rig and access to full VR can do it better due to the previously discussed dice pool modifiers and limit bonuses

[ClaytonCross]

#2
driving tests AND Gunnery are considered matrix actions while jumped in (SR5 p266). Jumped in controlling a device remotely uses logic... see #3. 

#3
Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Gunnery + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.  CRB, p183.

If your controlling a drone via rigging it is a remote action and there for logic. Per the rule book. Your looking at the rigging rules but omitted the gunnery specific rules. Its not about being jumped in, its about being remote which will always be the case when your jumped into a device. (Even jacked directly into a vehicle your "remote controlling it" the same way you would through the matrix.)

[Fabe]

#2

If your controlling a drone via rigging it is a remote action and there for logic. Per the rule book. Your looking at the rigging rules but omitted the gunnery specific rules. Its not about being jumped in, its about being remote which will always be the case when your jumped into a device. (Even jacked directly into a vehicle your "remote controlling it" the same way you would through the matrix.)

I disagree with that. Yes the rules say that remote controlling a weapon mount is gunnery/logic but the control device action on page 238 says you use the same skill/attribute normally used when controlling a device  . So if my rigger is using his comlink to remotely control one of his drones he;ll use pilot/reaction. 

[Kiirnodel]

Yeah... seems we have yet another contradiction in the Core Rulebook.

Under Gunnery on page 183.
It specifically call out that you use Gunnery + Agility for manual operated vehicle weapons. And you use Gunnery + Logic for remote operated systems.

But under Control Device on page 238.
The first example for using the appropriate skill and attribute you would normally use is for firing a drone-mounted weapon. It specifically calls out using Gunnery + Agility.

Now, Fabe, I don't think anyone is suggesting you wouldn't use Pilot + Reaction to drive a vehicle. The discussion they are having is specifically about the fact that Gunnery switches between Agility and Logic. I don't think ClaytonCross was suggesting you use Logic for everything while operating remotely (just Gunnery).

Personally, I side with the idea that Gunnery + Logic while jumped in makes sense, because why does your physical hand-eye coordination have an effect on your ability to aim and shoot over the matrix? If the rigger's body is lying limp in the seat, why would the fact that he has Muscle Toner affect his ability to shoot the drone that he's jumped into?

Now, I had a bit of a hard time adjusting to the idea that you still use your Reaction for Piloting, because again, it didn't seem to make sense the your physical attributes would have an effect on your jumped-in abilities. I thought it would be similar to Astral attributes, where your Intuition (Mental reaction speed) would replace your physical twitch (Reaction). I came to terms with Reaction staying put for Piloting based on the idea that it could still be based on your neural impulses, which are increased by things like Wired Reflexes or Reaction enhancers. But I would still be stuck on the idea that your muscle tone has any effect on your ability to aim a remotely operated gun. The only explanation I can give for using Agility is if you are using a Virtual device (like AR through a Miracle Shooter) system to physically move and aim and have that input be what aims and shoots the remotely operated turret. So if someone is in AR and using Control Device to aim and shoot a remote-operate drone turret, I would let them opt to use Agility in that circumstance. But any sort of VR, it just doesn't really make sense to use Agility for any sort of tests... That would be like saying when the decker commands a robotic arm to lift a box, he needs to roll his Body+Strength to see if the arm can pick it up...

[ClaytonCross]

#2

If your controlling a drone via rigging it is a remote action and there for logic. Per the rule book. Your looking at the rigging rules but omitted the gunnery specific rules. Its not about being jumped in, its about being remote which will always be the case when your jumped into a device. (Even jacked directly into a vehicle your "remote controlling it" the same way you would through the matrix.)

I disagree with that. Yes the rules say that remote controlling a weapon mount is gunnery/logic but the control device action on page 238 says you use the same skill/attribute normally used when controlling a device  . So if my rigger is using his comlink to remotely control one of his drones he;ll use pilot/reaction.

1. You not using the "control device" matrix action if your jumped in. That is the topic of the thread.
2. If your controlling decker (or anyone else, including a rigger) using a come link to use "control device" then the rule of specific over general applies. Generally you use the same skill listed for control device but not if the skill specifically calls out remote use as changing it to logic. If that is not the case then specific rule of logic has no meaning and would never apply. If your remote its logic unless you have a more specific rule for gunnery and its use. Not a general rule that states all actions and does not apply to riggers (who are not using the "control device" matrix action to begin with. They are using gunnery as a matrix action per the rules.

all driving tests AND Gunnery are considered matrix actions while jumped in (SR5 p266)