[ClaytonCross]

All gunnery using Drones (even jumped in) is a complex action. So the idea of leaving a simple action to attack is killed on the other end not by the act of jumping in whether it is a simple action or a complex one move between them. That is stated under drone gunnery.

I will be posting a massive change to this post because a lot of it is wrong. I found my notes and will have a ton of page numbers and quotes which is why I have not posted yet, I am writing it all up offline and updating it all at once so that I don't get complaints about a few missing spots I have not filled in yet. It will also includes sensor tests (active targeting as a spate entry) as well as vehicle skill tests all with with quotes and page numbers and cleaned up as much as possible.

TWO BIG NOTES:
1. The first and biggest thing is control rigs only add to LIMITS not dice pools.
2. The bonus for being in VR applies to the LIMIT, where the bonus for hot-sim applies to DEVICE POOL. They are separate bonuses entirely and saying they "stack" is miss leading. They both add independent changes. Hopefully this will stop some of the debate about if they stack since they are not even adding to the same thing.

- Initiaive is NOT a SKILL TEST, and has NO LIMIT or opposition test so most bonuses don't apply and since there is a specific rule for dice pools for hot and cold sim there is not conflict and you know it does not get the hot-sim bonus. Please stop using that as a reference of why everything else is wrong. Its not even relevant.

[Marcus Gideon]

All shooting by Drones (even jumped in) is a complex action. So the idea of leaving a simple action to attack is killed on the other end not by the act of jumping in whether it is a simple action or a complex one move between them. That is stated under drone gunnery.

I will be posting a massive change to this post because a lot of it is wrong. I found my notes and will have a ton of page numbers and quotes which is why I have not posted yet, I am writing it all up offline and updating it all at once so that I don't get complaints about a few missing spots I have not filled in yet. It will also includes sensor tests (active targeting as a spate entry) as well as vehicle skill tests all with with quotes and page numbers and cleaned up as much as possible.

TWO BIG NOTES:
1. The first and biggest thing is control rigs only add to LIMITS not dice pools.
2. The bonus for being in VR applies to the LIMIT, where the bonus for hot-sim applies to DEVICE POOL. They are separate bonuses entirely and saying they "stack" is miss leading. They both add independent changes. Hopefully this will stop some of the debate about if they stack since they are not even adding to the same thing.

- Initiaive is NOT a SKILL TEST, and has NO LIMIT or opposition test so most bonuses don't apply and since there is a specific rule for dice pools for hot and cold sim there is not conflict and you know it does not get the hot-sim bonus. Please stop using that as a reference of why everything else is wrong. Its not even relevant.

* First off...
Core pg 452, Control Rig

When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in.

Control Rig rating is applied to...

Vehicle stats, which become the Limits
Vehicle skill checks
And Vehicle skill check Thresholds

* Second off...
The bonus for being in VR applies to the dice pools, not to the Limits. It's never applied to the Limits.

* Lastly...
Initiative doesn't have anything to do with the Control Rig, you are correct. However, the Rigger section does have a paragraph which talks about what happens in general to a Rigger in VR. And it clearly states certain amounts of extra Initiative dice, as well as extra bonuses to Matrix actions (which vehicle actions count). That's why we're arguing the Initiative front, it is relevant. When the Rigger Initiative specifically lists different amounts of Initiative than a Decker, and then lists different amounts of bonus dice for Hot Sim... and then someone comes along and says "Oh, one of those bonuses is supposed to stack. The book doesn't even remotely hint at the fact, but that's what we meant to say."

[adzling]

Yeah most of your last post above is incorrect Clayton.

Marcus' point: "When the Rigger Initiative specifically lists different amounts of Initiative than a Decker, and then lists different amounts of bonus dice for Hot Sim... and then someone comes along and says "Oh, one of those bonuses is supposed to stack. The book doesn't even remotely hint at the fact, but that's what we meant to say." is accurate and on the money.

Specific trumps general and in this instance the rigger receives specific bonuses for hot sim vr that are different and noted as different in the rigger section in the two paragraphs I quoted previously.

Nowhere does it note that they stack with other VR hotsim bonuses and the most obvious indication that they do not is that they would have said "an additional" or other note to indicate they do indeed stack.

[ClaytonCross]

* First off...
Core pg 452, Control Rig
Control Rig rating is applied to...

Vehicle stats, which become the Limits
Vehicle skill checks
And Vehicle skill check Thresholds

---Ok, Thinking about it I was looking at the entry for matrix actions for vehicles where it lists rigs p201, 207, 230 <-- from memory not 100% sure on the pages. But I may have made the classic mistake of checking the gear entry. I know I looked at the rigger entry for limits and the one above. I sent and email and will add this back in and re-align my upcoming changes to the post. Thanks for catching my over site. Its why I am asking. As you posted before... so many scattered pieces its hard to put it all together and why they didn't make a section in Rigger5.0 and detail rigger combat instead of pointing back to the book that is confusing everyone I will never understand. I like the tables and gear options they added... well except the absence of RCC anything. --- I will add the rig back to the pools on the first page now since you list quote and page--- But I will update all of it later.

* Second off...
The bonus for being in VR applies to the dice pools, not to the Limits. It's never applied to the Limits.

This one I will have to double check, because when I was looking at the book last night I copied over the exact quote in the book. That's when I noticed it says limits. With that said, its possible it is one of many that lists bonuses scattered around all over the book. In some ways that worries me more because if that is the case and we are talking about 2 different entries then it starts another "is this a typo" conversation or it means VR adds 1 to limit and pool. Prior to looking at the entry last night I was in complete agreement with you. So its possible I confused something as well. Again, I will add the quote and page tonight I hope.

* Lastly...
Initiative doesn't have anything to do with the Control Rig, you are correct. However, the Rigger section does have a paragraph which talks about what happens in general to a Rigger in VR. And it clearly states certain amounts of extra Initiative dice, as well as extra bonuses to Matrix actions (which vehicle actions count). That's why we're arguing the Initiative front, it is relevant. When the Rigger Initiative specifically lists different amounts of Initiative than a Decker, and then lists different amounts of bonus dice for Hot Sim... and then someone comes along and says "Oh, one of those bonuses is supposed to stack. The book doesn't even remotely hint at the fact, but that's what we meant to say."

This one, I have no idea. I though there was only the one matrix initiative and misunderstood people as saying the device pools for initiative are derived from VR bonuses applying to them and everyone is disputing what those bonus are. As initiative is not a skill test and it says in at least 2 places that matrix initiative is the same INT + REA + 2D6 matrix, INT + REA + 3D6 cold-sim, INT + REA + 4D6 hot-sim <-- from head, not book could be wrong.

[ClaytonCross]

Made my First Edit to add page numbers and quoted text. I still have a number of corrections to make and Intend to add, perception/sensor tests, surprise test, active targeting,  initiative, update defense, add defensive driving to include Rigger5.0 upgrades, and Damage. Then hopefully I will be able to play a fight from beginning to end as a rigger an not have questions. If there are some questions that just can't be answered with the book, I will try to make a consolidated questions list to submit to FAQ for answers.

Please feel free to correct anything you see as wrong!!! I am making this as guide for me because I am lost. It would be preferred however if you could back it up with a page number and maybe a quote. There are a few things being said I can find no record of.

Examples:
1. VR adds to dice pools. I only see the entry on SR5 p201 that says they add to limits
2. Initiative being different some how. I found 3 separate entries that say, "INT + REA + 2D6 matrix, INT + REA + 3D6 cold-sim, INT + REA + 4D6 hot-sim" but nothing that contradicts but I will add my notes when add/update the initiative section.