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The Ecology of the Shedim

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #90 on: <01-23-16/1630:35> »
No.  And that is the point of gray and grayer.  Good and evil depends on which end of the gun you are facing.  Nobody thinks of themselves as evil.  They always have a good reason for what they are doing, it is just that the other guy doesn't agree with that reason. 

Mirikon

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« Reply #91 on: <01-23-16/1709:15> »
Well, actually yes, there are entities that occupy the 'pure good' side of things. But they aren't widely known because things haven't gotten to the point where they can come here yet. Remember, Shedim only showed up so early because one great dragon blew a hole in the world and another ripped it wider clawing his way out of the metaplanes. Otherwise, we wouldn't have seen them for, oh, at least a couple hundred more years.

And Joe, we get it. You don't like absolutes. Good for you. In that case, instead of trying to rewrite one of the extremely few things in Shadowrun that is canonically nailed down as an absolute amongst absolutes, focus your game on the other 99.9999% of the setting. Don't try to tell people the sky is green just because you think blue is tacky.
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MijRai

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« Reply #92 on: <01-23-16/1819:57> »
*Passes cookies to Mirikon in agreement.*
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #93 on: <01-23-16/2316:48> »
Nobody thinks of themselves as evil.

Actually, there are. Some people know they are evil, and some of them even revel in it. Good and evil can be simply (though somewhat crudely) defined. Good is any action taken to benefit society as a whole, while evil is any action taken at the cost of society as a whole. This is why it is possible to do good deeds for evil reasons. Like being a philanthropist so people don't realize you are a world-wide crime boss.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #94 on: <01-24-16/0018:37> »
Nobody thinks of themselves as evil.

Actually, there are. Some people know they are evil, and some of them even revel in it. Good and evil can be simply (though somewhat crudely) defined. Good is any action taken to benefit society as a whole, while evil is any action taken at the cost of society as a whole. This is why it is possible to do good deeds for evil reasons. Like being a philanthropist so people don't realize you are a world-wide crime boss.
Indeed. My favorite example: The Operative from the Firefly spin-off movie Serenity.

Quote
The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

While The Operative is entirely fictional, I know from personal experience that the ends do not, or at least should not, always justify the means.
« Last Edit: <01-24-16/0020:13> by Herr Brackhaus »

Longshot23

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« Reply #95 on: <01-24-16/0535:08> »
Fundamentally,  Shedim are zombies.  They exist to be guilt free victims of our characters' murder fantasies.  They are Synths, body snatchers, evil clones, doppelgangers... whatever the flavor, they are cast as irredeemably evil creatures who look just like us so that we have an excuse to go on a rampage. 

If that's your kick, fine.  But, I like the guilt and anguish and repercussions involved with pulling that trigger.  That is why I prefer Shadowrun over DND.  Absolute evil undermines the responsibility.

Um . . . apparently not.  Certainly not zombies, because zombies are attested as something different within the SR paradigm. I get the feeling that shedim would violently repudiate the idea that they exist to be anything other than pest controllers, where pest = metahuman. And if a shedim (Master or not) can't manage to guilt-trip a bunch of PCs, the GM really isn't trying.  Think vampires from Buffy/Angel.

We get that they're not to your taste. That doesn't mean others don't find them worthwhile adversaries or villains. I kind of expected mega-scepticism or talking them down from Wyrm, and maybe a few others.

Mirikon

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« Reply #96 on: <01-24-16/1023:14> »
He wasn't talking about SR zombies, but Night of the Living Dead zombies, Longshot.

And I'd actually say that in a 'grey and greyer' setting like Shadowrun, having points of utter dark and white light helps to reinforce that feeling, as well as keeping one from becoming detached to the whole thing. Fighting an enemy like a Shedim or going on a hooding run to help a guy get his daughter back from slavers is a change of pace from your typical datasteals, extractions, and so on. When everything is grey, it is easy to lose perspective, and that anguish some might feel pulling the trigger begins to fade away as it is 'just another job'. The white and the black keep you grounded, give you something to set your moral compass by, and remind you of innocence lost and how far you have gone. If you want the anguish, then I say that rather than avoiding pure white or pure black, you NEED them in your game. Oh sure, not all the time, as that will grow blase, same as with nothing but grey, but once in a while, having a stark reminder of the absolutes out there comes as a shock to the system, and forces people to reevaluate life choices. Makes for a much more compelling story that way.
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #97 on: <01-24-16/1941:38> »
He wasn't talking about SR zombies, but Night of the Living Dead zombies, Longshot.

And I'd actually say that in a 'grey and greyer' setting like Shadowrun, having points of utter dark and white light helps to reinforce that feeling, as well as keeping one from becoming detached to the whole thing. Fighting an enemy like a Shedim or going on a hooding run to help a guy get his daughter back from slavers is a change of pace from your typical datasteals, extractions, and so on. When everything is grey, it is easy to lose perspective, and that anguish some might feel pulling the trigger begins to fade away as it is 'just another job'. The white and the black keep you grounded, give you something to set your moral compass by, and remind you of innocence lost and how far you have gone. If you want the anguish, then I say that rather than avoiding pure white or pure black, you NEED them in your game. Oh sure, not all the time, as that will grow blase, same as with nothing but grey, but once in a while, having a stark reminder of the absolutes out there comes as a shock to the system, and forces people to reevaluate life choices. Makes for a much more compelling story that way.

All of this yes!

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #98 on: <01-26-16/1020:57> »
Come on guys, I thought we agreed. Hugs, kiss, puppies (to posses). All they want is to love the world (to death).
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Mirikon

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« Reply #99 on: <01-26-16/1108:00> »
To reinforce what I'm saying, I'd like to bring up a couple different worlds from anime.

First off, Ghost in the Shell. Specifically, the Stand Alone Complex series. GitS, for those heathens who don't know, is set in a dystopic cyberpunk-type future, where cybernetics and even full body cyborgs have become more common. The movies and series follow the adventures of Section 9, an elite unit focused on anti-terror and anti-cybercrime tactics. While they may be the 'good guys', this isn't a good and evil kind of story. Most of the time, there's the moral ambiguity one expects in a dystopia. However, there are a few instances where you see some utter dark, like when CIA pukes come to try and manipulate Batou into killing one of their rogue operatives for them (said operative likes to cut the skin off people in a t-shirt pattern and film it from the victim's cybernetics), and they complain at the end (when Batou refuses to kill the man in cold blood) that they only bought enough tickets for the two agents. There's also some white light, such as the series finale, when the AI Tachikomas crash the satellite holding their AIs into a submarine in order to prevent a nuclear strike on the team's position, sacrificing themselves. These moments help crystalize the character of the team, which helps put the grey in relief.

In Cowboy Beebop, you have a team of bounty hunters flying through the solar system in search of enough work to keep their ships running. This series is about hunting criminals, yes, but the series sets the tone early by having the criminals be real people with real motivations, some of which are quite sympathetic. But there is plenty of light, such as the time when they left some alien food in the fridge too long and it started attacking people until one character dumped the fridge into vacuum and the dog... ate the rest.
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