[Banshee]

As stated previously, Missions is not a "high level" campaign.
Its designed to keep things at a low level intentionally.

Where is this stated?

it is not explicitly stated anywhere but it is true, standard CMP adn SRM Missions are kept to down to the point where beginning characters can be effective and designed to adjust up if the table allows it.

Prime Missions are built for "high level" play.

Regardless however, you are right karma based advancement is easier to achieve but without adjust mission payouts to what would be "unrealistic" levels there is not much we can do about it and still remain within the framework of the core rules.

somethings we have in place or coming with the next version of the MIssion guidelines is ...

• working for the man/working for the people - let's you pursue money over karma or vice versa
• upgrade options - let's you trade in existing gear towards the cost of near gear, not perfect but works better than selling and then buying new
• new reputation use - allows for more "advanced" characters to obtain higher availability gear with having to spend extra resources just so your contacts can get thier dice pool high enough

[falar]

Regardless however, you are right karma based advancement is easier to achieve but without adjust mission payouts to what would be "unrealistic" levels there is not much we can do about it and still remain within the framework of the core rules.

I'm not so sure about this. Let's take a look at Critic's Choice:

• Maximum Karma is 6
• Maximum nuyen is 8500

Let's look at the guidelines that apply (using SR5 Core p372):

• Base - 3000 nuyen
• Highest Opposing Dice Pool - 19 from Neil's Archery - +4 Modifier
• Runners outnumbered 3 to 1 - This will occur if you have 4 or fewer runners or add the Hellhounds and have 6 or fewer runners - +1 Modifier
• Runners faced a pack of at least six critters - This will occur if you add the Hellhounds - +1 Modifier

This means, at a minimum, they should be getting 12,000 nuyen, with a swing of up to 18,000 nuyen. On the karma side, they should be getting a solid 7 karma (2 for survival, 2 for completing objectives, 3 for Overall Adventure Challenge from Neil's archery pool).

[Banshee]

Regardless however, you are right karma based advancement is easier to achieve but without adjust mission payouts to what would be "unrealistic" levels there is not much we can do about it and still remain within the framework of the core rules.

I'm not so sure about this. Let's take a look at Critic's Choice:

• Maximum Karma is 6
• Maximum nuyen is 8500

Let's look at the guidelines that apply (using SR5 Core p372):

• Base - 3000 nuyen
• Highest Opposing Dice Pool - 19 from Neil's Archery - +4 Modifier
• Runners outnumbered 3 to 1 - This will occur if you have 4 or fewer runners or add the Hellhounds and have 6 or fewer runners - +1 Modifier
• Runners faced a pack of at least six critters - This will occur if you add the Hellhounds - +1 Modifier

This means, at a minimum, they should be getting 12,000 nuyen, with a swing of up to 18,000 nuyen. On the karma side, they should be getting a solid 7 karma (2 for survival, 2 for completing objectives, 3 for Overall Adventure Challenge from Neil's archery pool).

your right in regards to that particular mission (and there are others that swing the other way), but I was talking in general mission terms you should expect 10-15,000 base pay and 6-8 karma

[Herr Brackhaus]

<znip> in general mission terms you should expect 10-15,000 base pay and 6-8 karma

Oh?

[spoiler=Maximum karma and nuyen rewards for season 5 and 6 missions:]
SRM05-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥
SRM05-02: 6 karma, 10,000¥
SRM05-03: 6 karma, 7,500¥ (incorrectly lists that up to 3 additional karma may be earned through roleplaying, which has been errata'd as far as I know)
SRM05-04: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM05-05: 7 karma, 18,000¥
SRM05-06: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM06-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥, single beta grade implant at standard grade price[/spoiler]

Average is 6.43 karma and 13,643¥, and that's with absolute maximum rewards for both, i.e. hitting all negotiation tests and achieving all objectives in the most optimum way from a reward perspective.

I'm not sure I would use the terms "expect" and "base" with the above...

When I get back from lunch I'll do a comparison using the SR5 guidelines to see how that matches up.

[Banshee]

<znip> in general mission terms you should expect 10-15,000 base pay and 6-8 karma

Oh?

[spoiler=Maximum karma and nuyen rewards for season 5 and 6 missions:]
SRM05-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥
SRM05-02: 6 karma, 10,000¥
SRM05-03: 6 karma, 7,500¥ (incorrectly lists that up to 3 additional karma may be earned through roleplaying, which has been errata'd as far as I know)
SRM05-04: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM05-05: 7 karma, 18,000¥
SRM05-06: 7 karma, 14,000¥
SRM06-01: 6 karma, 16,000¥, single beta grade implant at standard grade price[/spoiler]

Average is 6.43 karma and 13,643¥, and that's with absolute maximum rewards for both, i.e. hitting all negotiation tests and achieving all objectives in the most optimum way from a reward perspective.

I'm not sure I would use the terms "expect" and "base" with the above...

When I get back from lunch I'll do a comparison using the SR5 guidelines to see how that matches up.

I didn't have statistical data available to provide any specifics, but I can speak to what the mission director and myself have talked about as to what current design expectations are for missions

[falar]

If nothing else, gear-progression characters can't grow as quickly as karma-progression characters. For some characters, this is much more of an issue than with others. There are a couple of things that can be done without adjusting run reward, which, while they are on the low side, aren't too far off from the recommended guidelines for later missions. Sprawl Wilds is Missions-Legal and is an utter crapshoot for cash. London Falling seems to be at about the base payouts (10,000 nuyen/5-6 karma). However ... you face Red Samurai with Hardened Armor 23 in the end ... which I think should push you up to somewhere around 21k base.

That said, there are decent ideas -

• Working for the Man/Working for the People - this is the most solid option. The numbers just need to adjust to something like 5000 nuyen to 1 karma. This would simultaneously cut down how fast karma-progression characters can progress, as well as upping the rate at which gear-progression characters can progress.
• Upgrading Gear - this is okay, for implants and foci, but it still falls far short for Deckers and Riggers who have much more invested in non-implant options. A decker needs a ton of nuyen to upgrade his deck and there is no upgrade option for him.
• Reputation Availability - this is an important thing. It does not change the base inequalities between cash and karma though. It helps gear-based progression characters because it will keep the prices equivalent to the books instead of tacking on fees.

Honestly, the biggest thing is that non-magical progression is way more expensive than magical progression. Your first three initiations are accessible in 2-3 runs apiece and that's a HUGE advantage. If skills/attributes cost less to raise or 'ware was cheaper, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. If a character could go from Skill 6 to Skill 9 in 4-5 runs, it wouldn't be so stark of a difference.

[Teutonic Overlord]

Good afternoon everyone!

After reviewing this thread, I’ll post my thoughts on this.  Please note this topic was brought up when Bull was the developer as well and he addressed it quite well.

I know I rarely visit the forums, mainly because I’ve been focusing on getting Season 6 out the door while preparing Season 7 and the 2016 CMPs.  As any of the authors will tell you, it is quite a time consuming process.  On top of that, there are other duties I perform in relation to the CDT and SRMs.  Note Season 8 and 2017 CMPs are also assigned and in the writing processes.

No where is it explicitly stated that Missions are meant for low-level play.  However, they are not meant as high level play either (hence the Prime Missions).  Before I get too far, Prime Mission 01 was already ran at Origins and GenCon last year as well as at regional conventions. PM-02 will be ran at Origins and GenCon this year.  PM-03 through 10 have already been assigned to authors and are in the writing process. These Missions have a higher payout and more karma…but you have to work harder to get them.

With all that said, the SRM FAQ notes average karma is 6-8 and payouts are 10-12K nuyen.  That cannot be taken as “You will always get this amount.”  Some end up higher, some end up lower.

The intent of each Shadowrun Mission is to allow players an opportunity to play their characters and have fun, whether they have 0 TKE or 350 TKE.  Due to the nature of conventions, we see both at the same table with a smattering in between.  Therefore, we need as fair a system as possible to try to strike a balance.  It’s no fun sitting at a table with a low TKE character while the high TKE character takes over the action (note: this occurs frequently and has as much to do with how one plays their character as the amount of TKE).  If I start having the authors adjust for the possibility of high TKE characters, then low TKE characters will not have fun…hence the leeway we provide Agents who run them to fit the table.  Some players may find they received more karma because Pushing the Envelopes or greater challenges were used.  Some may find they received less because the GM didn’t throw everything at them because the team was not able to face all the challenges.

We all know Shadowrun has a power curve and that power curve can get crazy on the high end, whether it’s gear, karma, or both.  There are methods in the FAQ to earn more karma or nuyen.  There are methods to upgrade cyberware.  Once street dates are announced, there will be methods to upgrade cyberdecks and use Reputation to get better gear.

I do not intend to make high availability gear easy to get, whether it’s magical or technological…though it will be easier.

Also note, there was a distinction made between karma progression and gear progression characters.  All characters earn and use karma and nuyen to upgrade…they just use it for different purposes.  A street sam/hacker/rigger wants more nuyen to improve (or acquire) a specific piece of equipment, hence the need (sometimes extreme need).  A magician (for example) needs karma AND nuyen to bond and buy a focus.  If we increase the nuyen or karma significantly, there will still be a perceived discrepancy in progression.

Note:  I am not going to get into a discussion concerning the accuracy or inaccuracy of this post as I will not have the time to give this or other topics adequate attention on the forums.  I am hard at work trying to provide y'all quality material which you may use to have fun (either in a Missions legal campaign or a no holds barred home game).

[falar]

Note:  I am not going to get into a discussion concerning the accuracy or inaccuracy of this post as I will not have the time to give this or other topics adequate attention on the forums.  I am hard at work trying to provide y'all quality material which you may use to have fun (either in a Missions legal campaign or a no holds barred home game).

This was a super exciting post, by the way. I really loved hearing about the writing for Season 6 and Season 7 and the 2016 & 2017 CMPs.

It's a very good point about needing to work for the 0 TKE and the 350 TKE 'runner and that's not something that I would ever disagree with. It's a pain in the butt to manage a lot of things across widely differing levels of power. It's one of the reasons I would probably not want to be a CDT Agent, although I've thought about it sometimes.

That said (and I fully realize this won't be read), my desire is that a 100 TKE Decker has had as much fun and feels that his character has evolved as much as a 100 TKE Mage. I do not believe that to be the case. There have been a lot of moves in the right direction, but I do not believe this to be true at this time and I do not believe that the availability change will make that a reality. The ability to upgrade non-implant gear may help.

I've been in several games where all the available Pushing the Envelope options were used and the payout was not increased. I've also never seen reference to "if you use a Pushing the Envelope option, increase the payout" anywhere, even though it makes sense. It might be advisable to add that to the books - something like, "For each Pushing the Envelope option you use, increase karma payouts by 1 and increase cash payouts by 2000 nuyen per 'runner."

[Teutonic Overlord]

Never make assumptions it won't be read   Even though I may not respond, members of the SRM FAQ committee do read these posts and bring up valid points during our calls.

Fair points!

You are always welcome to come to the other side of the screen as an Agent.  We are always looking for more!

[falar]

You are always welcome to come to the other side of the screen as an Agent.  We are always looking for more!

Like I said, I've considered and will consider it.

The time requirement to actually contribute is a bit higher than I can squeeze without cutting into the game I run (twice monthly and heavily houseruled), the game I play (once monthly), and my other loved hobby - board gaming, which is a one-two times a week deal. However, if Jimmy "Funkmaster G" Gaylord gets the MadTown Shadowrun Missions Circle up and going, I've thought about doing a monthly or bimonthly run as part of it at my FLGS.

[Tarislar]

Where is this stated?

One of the first things on a CyberSam's shopping list after character creation is usually a Pain Editor. Not always, but usually. It's probably equivalent to the mage's first initiation for jump in power. Let's see how this breaks down:

The street sam can now barely afford the Pain Editor - but wait, he really only has a 5 Connection / 3 Loyalty Martin Tate who can get this. That gets him ... any gear up to 15? So he needs to spend an additional 75% to get the Pain Editor - meaning he has to get 84,000 nuyen.[/li]

Because you have a Loyalty 2, Connection 3 Sid Gambetti as your main contact. Because he's a fixer, that's a 10% markup. Because you need to up his dice pool by four, that's +100%.

Because you're a Shadowrunner. You don't get called out of bed to handle normal ammo problems. You get hired because there's a Force 8 spirit that you need to contend with and all you have is an assault rifle and a grenade launcher. You better be packing APDS or you ain't a real Sam.

Also - are you intentionally missing my main point? Karma-progression characters do not have it harder to advance. Only gear-progression characters have it harder. To even the field, you'd need to half or third the karma rewards. And I'm pretty sure that's not the Missions design goal. [/quote]

Belated response, but here goes.

1. I think its been covered by others.  Its not directly stated.  But it IS a goal when trying to deal w/ the fact that at any given game you could be mixing a 0K New Gen character with a 135-Earned Karma character with 18 Runs under their belt.

2. I’m not sure that Pain Editor is a Must Have for anyone after Chargen.  Personally,  I buy Damage Comp 3A or 4 at Chargen & don’t bother with Pain Editor.  But that is me.

2. “Friends in high places” solves any Connection level uses for 8 Karma at Chargen & has loads of other benefits as well.  (Or use a Face w/ larger dice pool, I know, you don’t have that option, but many do)

3.  Why is Sid Gambetti your main contact?  Get a fixer are Chargen with 6/1
(That said, I really do think the 25% rule is broken.  These aren’t “Hits” they are “Dice”, so to me 5%/10% would have been a MUCH better rule.)

4. If the Samurai is the one dealing w/ a Force-8 Spirit, instead of the Awakened Team Member.  Something has gone wrong.  (Given APDS & Grenade Launchers are illegal, I see a prison cell in this Samurai’s future.  Not saying I wouldn’t have one.  I’d just be damned if that was my only option like you say.)

5. If I was missing your main point its only because your kind of mixing points all through your discussion & using an examples tailored just to this edge case.  Why is it all Karma v/s Cash in those examples?   Since when do Samurai have no need for Karma to increase skills & Attributes? 
We all know Quickening is broken if you don’t balance out the issue of having a permanent spell on you ALL THE TIME in civilized society. 
What happens if the mage is looking into Power Focuses that are expensive in both Cash & Karma?
Or wants to not be a glowing beacon on the astral & go the Sustained Focus route? 
Or actually desires a better lifestyle, car, reagents while still wanting too boost skills?
Or an Adept looking for a good Weapon Focus?
All these will chew up Cash AND Karma.


To me it seems like this whole example is kind of specialized worst case situation.
A.  The Sam wants an 18F, fairly expensive piece of gear as a Missions Character.
B.  The Sam does not have a high connection Fixer.
C.  The Sam does not have a regular Face to assist with gear.
D.  The Comparison to Mages involves Quickening instead of any of the multitude of other options that are better balanced.

[Tarislar]

I've been in several games where all the available Pushing the Envelope options were used and the payout was not increased. I've also never seen reference to "if you use a Pushing the Envelope option, increase the payout" anywhere, even though it makes sense. It might be advisable to add that to the books - something like, "For each Pushing the Envelope option you use, increase karma payouts by 1 and increase cash payouts by 2000 nuyen per 'runner."

Really good point, I totally agree.
That said.
I can see where the PtE options get used because the game had 8 players instead of 4-5. 
So they needed it to challenge them based on #'s.
So to me that doesn't mean more cash "each".  Because the more cash is used up in the extra 3-4 payouts.
Now if its a 3-man run of guys with 250K each who are so badass the GM pulls out those options because those 3 can take it?  Then yeah, Increased reward is fully due IMO.
I'd say the best option in these cases is to have an extra "something" built into the PtE event.
A Certified credstick on an NPC that you can find.  A sweet weapon/deck/drone, etc etc to salvage.  Something like that.

[schenn]

wait... Are we supposed to increase payouts with the Pushing the Envelope?! 

I assumed not due to the whole 'Each mission is balanced for rewards between GM's' Thing...

There's no info for how to increase the payout, so increasing it based off our own subjective GM opinions could easily unbalance a player or team.

[Bull]

in Missions, Pushing the Envelope scenes are usually not "Here's how to make this tougher"*.  Instead, they're often extra "mini-Scenes" that can be added in to make the game longer, provide a little extra value for the adventure, and give the players more interaction and more to do.  They are designed to be 100% optional for the GM and do not effect the plot or the rewards, since not every table will use them. 

All rewards and all plot/story points need to be available to every player going through an adventure, so it's not fair to give out anything extra because your table got to do one or two, and another table did not.

As a note, these are largely present for two reasons:

1)  At a convention, you paid for a 4 hour game.  Sometimes, groups will figure things out, find ways to skip stuff, etc, and blow through the scenario far faster than intended.  As such, these give the GM a way to stretch the adventure out a bit if he realizes the adventure is moving too quickly.

2)  Home play.  These give a GM who is unfettered by a time limit a way to do more with the adventure.  Letting the players take their time and adding in multiple PtE scenes means you can usually easily stretch a Mission into a 2 night game (Or a 6+ hour long game, depending on how you play).

*Note:  This was the intention when I was developer, anyways.  However, since PtE scenes in non-Missions modules are usually "How to make this harder" information, some writers still would add those in.  And Ray and the current Missions team may change up how PtE is used now, I'm not certain.  This was just my own take on it and my own intentions.

[schenn]

Thanks for clearing that up!

My two cents: High availability gear is supposed to be expensive. But what about face characters who make their characters built around developing connections and powerful face-y skills... Should they get a discount? Sure! So the prices reflect wholesale while the availability test simply reflects the market value difference.

The issue isn't really the lack of karma or nuyen, its the lack of rules for upgrading items to their higher availability versions, which, from what I understand, will hopefully be explained soon in an upcoming Missions FAQ update.

It's also the lack of info on how to build and use personal contacts for Missions. Spelling it out more would help players understand why they need that rating 6 fixer and what type of contacts they actually should have for their character that isn't just a fixer. (e.g. Are we supposed to build them using the Contacts rules in core, limited to missions legal qualities, or.. should they just be relegated to fluff and being a fixer? ) The faq says that personal contacts are really important but then doesn't say how to legally make them and barely touches on their use.

Really looking forward to seeing the next FAQ update.