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Is Shadowrun really this brutal?

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rednblack

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« Reply #105 on: <01-16-16/1058:52> »
It'd be poor form for a GM to have a player still get more or less a "game over" despite burning Edge.  If the team does nothing to recover them after they go down (a dumb move, considering interrogation and torture to find accomplices is a thing) then they would get captured, but rather than "life in prison, make a new character" there should be a continuation, maybe an attempt to get the guy out.

Perhaps.  While I agree that playing "gotcha" with burning Edge would be poor form, sometimes chars die.  Even in dnd, if your char falls in a volcano that's it.  No body, no rez.  My point isn't: GMs have other ways of messing with players who burn Edge, so much as it's: burning Edge doesn't unilaterally mean that you get to keep playing that char.  There are extenuating circumstances outside the Condition Monitor.

I don't mean literally a prison break, but that can be done sometimes.  I also mean like, datasteals for leverage, bribery, cashing in on favors gained, etc.

If the PCs are on board, certainly.  What about the player who's char is in prison for the weeks or months where this plays out?

The way I see it, it's the same as having a character who burned Edge lose a limb.  You aren't dead, you can keep playing this guy, but there's gonna be a big inconvenience.  Unless all your limbs are already modular cybernetics...  In which case you're kinda just sliding Death a credstick if you lose a limb.  But in those cases, there's "you wake up in a closet without any of your limbs".  And boy would that be a story to tell JackPoint...

Bolded for greatness.  To make sure that I'm understanding you right, do you believe that so long as a PC has 1 point of Edge, character death is entirely in the PC's hands?  If so, no judgment there.  It's an entirely valid way of playing.  I just have a certain view of consequences and the way that they play out.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #106 on: <01-16-16/1103:11> »
It'd be poor form for a GM to have a player still get more or less a "game over" despite burning Edge.  If the team does nothing to recover them after they go down (a dumb move, considering interrogation and torture to find accomplices is a thing) then they would get captured, but rather than "life in prison, make a new character" there should be a continuation, maybe an attempt to get the guy out.

Honestly, if a character gets captured, it's still a 'write up a new character' situation. On getting captured, all their gear is now gone, and since they just had to burn Edge to survive WITH all their gear, they're just going to end up in a downward spiral from there. Not to mention that with how much things cost, it's unlikely they'll ever be able to recoup the loss even outside that.
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ZombieAcePilot

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« Reply #107 on: <01-16-16/1140:03> »
Corps are known for using captured runners for info, or even coercing them into doing runs for them. Even knight errant hires runners, especially when the services are free because they are in a jail cell on site. For the price of a cortex bomb they have a runner under their thumb. Way more interesting them making them roll a new character.

MijRai

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« Reply #108 on: <01-16-16/1150:50> »
They don't even need a cortex bomb if they've got a ritual sorcerer and some material links.  Good for when you don't want to mess up your new pet mage's Essence. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

ZombieAcePilot

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« Reply #109 on: <01-16-16/1155:39> »
They don't even need a cortex bomb if they've got a ritual sorcerer and some material links.  Good for when you don't want to mess up your new pet mage's Essence.

That's the best person to put them in. Makes it harder for them to try and protect themselves with magic or avoid holding up their part of the bargin. After all, the corp doesn't care about you. They just want to use you a bit.

firebug

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« Reply #110 on: <01-16-16/1156:53> »
It'd be poor form for a GM to have a player still get more or less a "game over" despite burning Edge.  If the team does nothing to recover them after they go down (a dumb move, considering interrogation and torture to find accomplices is a thing) then they would get captured, but rather than "life in prison, make a new character" there should be a continuation, maybe an attempt to get the guy out.

Honestly, if a character gets captured, it's still a 'write up a new character' situation. On getting captured, all their gear is now gone, and since they just had to burn Edge to survive WITH all their gear, they're just going to end up in a downward spiral from there. Not to mention that with how much things cost, it's unlikely they'll ever be able to recoup the loss even outside that.

Most characters likely don't have that much gear they carry with them all the time, but it'd be a strong loss.  I'm not saying I'd force the player; if they would rather make a new character from scratch I won't stop them.  I'd probably arrange for some way for their gear to be recoverable, at least partially.  If the decker gets kidnapped, I'm not saying the KE stop on his cyberdeck just for the lulz.

But, just because a character gets to a lowest point, I don't think you should just ditch him.  If you've been playing for a while, and the group is established, your allies should help you recover your losses (they bothered to break your ass out of jail in the first place) and the character would likely experience some interesting growth.  Put him in debt to some powerful people, maybe.  Maybe the group is stuck playing Company Man for a while to pay off some loans.  Be creative!  Don't just say "I lost my shit?  Fuck this.  New PC."  The GM should be willing to work with you on this.

Perhaps.  While I agree that playing "gotcha" with burning Edge would be poor form, sometimes chars die.  Even in dnd, if your char falls in a volcano that's it.  No body, no rez.  My point isn't: GMs have other ways of messing with players who burn Edge, so much as it's: burning Edge doesn't unilaterally mean that you get to keep playing that char.  There are extenuating circumstances outside the Condition Monitor.

Well, for one, True Resurrection.  You don't need the body for that.  But more to the point, I do consider PC death to be in the hands of the player as long as they have a point of Edge.  See, I don't think PC death has to be included for a game to be good or for there to be tangible risk.  Reputation, wealth, and other things play in enough.  Just like how you can watch and get invested in a TV show, even though you know the hero isn't going to just die any time soon.

As for "what about the guy in prison"?  I'd involve him.  I'd either be playing out his time in prison (TV shows have made this work before) as he stays alive and deals with prison politics while he uses what little communication with the outside he's given to wait for escape, or I'd actively involve him in the escape process, giving him objectives and things he needs to set up from the inside.

Now, I'm not saying all this work and effort needs to happen every time a player goes down.  That would be...  Awful.  But, I'm not going to tell a player who really wants to keep his character "Nope, burning the Edge does nothing."   We'll use the rules in the book and come to a conclusion that works for the game and the player.

EDIT:  ZombieAcePilot and MijRai's ideas are right on point.  Shadowrun is a world run by manipulators--  Not destroyers.  Runners are (deniable) assets, and having one by the short hairs is a great opportunity.

PCs failing shouldn't just be an end, with a pop-up "MISSION FAILED" screen and sad music.  It's a jumping off point for consequences that the characters have to deal with.  It's got great creative potential.  To just have a PC die is the loss of a story.
« Last Edit: <01-16-16/1201:22> by firebug »
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #111 on: <01-16-16/1649:00> »
....outside of an instant death killhshot, the two reasons I see when it's proper to get  a blank character sheet out or fire up the character generator programme on your computer are:

The character becomes infected with HMHVV.
The character either has his/her fat pulled out of the fire or is "conscripted" by a Dragon (especially a Great Dragon).

I've lost two characters back in 3e to the latter.
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #112 on: <01-16-16/1938:16> »

The character either has his/her fat pulled out of the fire or is "conscripted" by a Dragon (especially a Great Dragon).


Oh I don't know about that  ;D. I had one of my main characters back in 3rd sell his soul to Lofyer and it was a pretty fun and interesting till he died in Crash 2.0.

schenn

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« Reply #113 on: <01-19-16/1452:19> »
In my home games, burning a point of edge at death 'saves the character'. Meaning that while the security force is distracted on your friends you can crawl into cover and then sneak out. If you get arrested because there's really no other option, then the calendar simply moves forward a few months, you lose some nuyen (bribes and favors and fines) and gain a criminal sin since the prisons are too crowded to keep professional criminals locked up for too long, when there are so many unprofessional prisoners running about.

Lone Star and KE are only interested as long as their clients are, and the clients care more about how much money is being spent on their contracts (likely including a cost per subject imprisoned) than the loss of a couple of sec guards. In other words, the corp will have to decide between spending some thousands of nuyen housing, feeding, and caring for you and your comrades through their contracts with LS or KE, simply to punish you for doing your job, which they may end up hiring you for against a competitor, or not paying anything.

If you're game involves a GM that absolutely refuses to not kill your character off completely when there's a pile of ways you could get out of it, you should be "asking whats up with this GM?" Not "Why's this game so brutal?"

This isn't Warhammer. Character sheets don't come on tear pads and a character can often take a person hours to make, not minutes. It's not designed to run that way.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #114 on: <01-19-16/1525:06> »
..."hours..."  sometimes a day or two.

Now in the UK being arrested is a different experience as they have a national police force which is paramilitary in nature as well as the "Triple O" (basically their secret police).  The worst part is most likely your case will end up mired in the slow moving wheels of the national bureaucracy as you languish in your cell.  the UK does not have anything resembling "due process" so you are basically considered guilty until proven innocent.

Penalties for firearms possession/use and use of "unregistered magics" over force 3 (at least in the early 2060s) are particularly stiff..  The Lord  Protector is not a very nice chap indeed.

Crikey the the economy was still based on the Pound Sterling (affectionately called "Sovs") and hard currency.was still one of the main forms of exchange (though it was kind of cool to have "Mr Smith" hand the runners sealed brown envelopes filled with banknotes instead of certified credsticks for a job well done).

Not sure of the situation there in the mid 2070s has changed much since then.
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« Reply #115 on: <01-19-16/1641:16> »
..."hours..."  sometimes a day or two.

Now in the UK being arrested is a different experience as they have a national police force which is paramilitary in nature as well as the "Triple O" (basically their secret police).  The worst part is most likely your case will end up mired in the slow moving wheels of the national bureaucracy as you languish in your cell.  the UK does not have anything resembling "due process" so you are basically considered guilty until proven innocent.

Penalties for firearms possession/use and use of "unregistered magics" over force 3 (at least in the early 2060s) are particularly stiff..  The Lord  Protector is not a very nice chap indeed.

Crikey the the economy was still based on the Pound Sterling (affectionately called "Sovs") and hard currency.was still one of the main forms of exchange (though it was kind of cool to have "Mr Smith" hand the runners sealed brown envelopes filled with banknotes instead of certified credsticks for a job well done).

Not sure of the situation there in the mid 2070s has changed much since then.

And in Canada, just about everything is Debt card. So few people up here carry cash anymore, and even the Mom'n'Pop corner store uses a point of sale system. So why bother with paper money that can get lost or stolen when you can just use your bank card for EVERYTHING! And if you lose your card, just go to your bank and get a new one on the spot!

(Funny how we can all be on the same planet, yet things vary so wildly!)
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Lysanderz

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« Reply #116 on: <01-19-16/1656:18> »
If the decker gets kidnapped, I'm not saying the KE stop on his cyberdeck just for the lulz.

And THAT is why my drug dealer convinced the team to break into a KE evidence warehouse to help pay off some debt for the Yaks. Nothing like stealing stolen goods from cops. Also, nothing quite like locking KE officers in their evidence cage in their boxers. Good times, good memories and only a couple of bullet holes.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #117 on: <01-20-16/1947:27> »
..."hours..."  sometimes a day or two.

Now in the UK being arrested is a different experience as they have a national police force which is paramilitary in nature as well as the "Triple O" (basically their secret police).  The worst part is most likely your case will end up mired in the slow moving wheels of the national bureaucracy as you languish in your cell.  the UK does not have anything resembling "due process" so you are basically considered guilty until proven innocent.

Penalties for firearms possession/use and use of "unregistered magics" over force 3 (at least in the early 2060s) are particularly stiff..  The Lord  Protector is not a very nice chap indeed.

Crikey the the economy was still based on the Pound Sterling (affectionately called "Sovs") and hard currency.was still one of the main forms of exchange (though it was kind of cool to have "Mr Smith" hand the runners sealed brown envelopes filled with banknotes instead of certified credsticks for a job well done).

Not sure of the situation there in the mid 2070s has changed much since then.

And in Canada, just about everything is Debt card. So few people up here carry cash anymore, and even the Mom'n'Pop corner store uses a point of sale system. So why bother with paper money that can get lost or stolen when you can just use your bank card for EVERYTHING! And if you lose your card, just go to your bank and get a new one on the spot!

(Funny how we can all be on the same planet, yet things vary so wildly!)
...yeah, save pretty much for the resurgence of magic, the wireless matrix, metatypes, and tech advances, the UK in Shadowrun is not much different from the UK today   In 2060, handing a credstick instead of a tenner to a barkeep to pay for your beer at a pub would often get you an odd look.
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Adamo1618

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« Reply #118 on: <01-21-16/1625:24> »
Hi

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« Reply #119 on: <01-21-16/1731:35> »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.