[MijRai]

...  No.

The books explicitly state that shedim are malevolent (definition: having or showing a wish to do evil to others) beings that hate all life, metahumanity in particular.  This isn't 'a natural disaster killed a bunch of people,' it's 'these things actively choose and try to kill everything whenever they have the opportunity, or make the opportunities they need.'  They aren't critters, who act on the need to feed and breed.  They're choosing to come here and kill things and bring more of their kind.  They act with forethought and planning, infiltrate upper echelons of power to help ignite war and bloodshed.  The latest part of the EuroWars was caused by a Shedim.  You literally have no leg to stand on in trying to claim shedim are misunderstood or not evil; even the books that avoid saying good or evil say they are. 

I have no clue why you're jumping on a 'it's the dragons keeping us down, maaan!' streak right here, but it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  The connections to Earthdawn are tenuous nowadays.  So you're saying dragons are the reason toxic and blood magic is considered bad?  It's not because of the extreme ecological and astral damage that takes decades, if not centuries to clean up?  It's not the part where you gut a man like a fish to use his blood as magical gasoline for your spells?  It's because the wiz-worms are displeased by paltry attempts to upstage their power. 

So by destroying our homes, we can get rid of our neighbors.  Smart move?  Making a bunch of psychopaths who are as likely to kill us as the enemy.  ...  Who said those bounties are illegal?  They're completely legal, and not because some dragon posted them.  Bounties have been around for millennia.  Finally, yes, he didn't put a bounty on insect shamans; you realize a good number of the toxic and blood mage bounties are to take them alive for study and treatment, right?  They've been working on a 'cure' for it, if possible.  Perhaps they realize insect shamans aren't curable, and should just be put down (not to mention the fact that insect shamans already had bounties on them at that point). 

While in the scheme of mundane, real-world morality 'good' and 'evil' are loaded terms (though still applicable), this isn't a real world.  It's a world where abominations against nature exist, where sentient darkness can encroach on our world with malignant intentions.  It's a world where exposure to bad things can make you a bad thing.  That you are calling the game designers liars for explicitly saying 'this is bad and should only be used for NPCs' is ridiculous.  You being 'usually right' about them lying is bullshit as well.  Throw whatever spin you want on it in your game, go ahead.  It ain't canon at that point, and I for one aren't going to take part in that vision.  Evil is a legitimate term despite your claim that it isn't. 

And yeah, how about you not do the chain-yanking?  I mean, if people going 'this is evil' like you're a five year old offends you, maybe don't act like it to others. 

[CitizenJoe]

If you accept that Shadowrun is a Gray and Grayer morality, then you, the Shadowrunner can operate as "at least I'm not as bad as that guy."  However, the moment that you include explicitly evil and a concrete hard concept, and not an opinion, then Shadowrunners all become evil by virtue of them doing bad things.  Even cutting off your arm for a cyber replacement is evil... you're giving up part of your soul to do it.  The entire moral structure of the game collapses.  That's why explicit evil is bad for the game. 

In the context of the original post, which had nothing to do with Shedim, Toxics, Blood magic or dragons, my point is that the shadowrunner isn't bound by cultural mores and ethics with regards to getting things accomplished.   That means you can cheat to get an advantage.  Is the game brutal?  It can be, if that's the way you push things.  But the game is called Shadow Run for a reason.  It isn't called Bulletsponge or Future War simulator 2015. 

[Moonshine Fox]

Evil can have an absolute and still leave a massive amount of grey to deal with, they are not mutually exclusive. Real world example, Auschwitz. That is a pretty good form of absolute evil, a place who's only function was the slaughter of any group of people not considered worthy of life. The Shedim are an example of this. They come to this world for the express reason of exterminating all life except themselves. This fact doesn't change the comparison between two runners who do B&E datasteals, one of who tries to avoid killing as best he can, and the other who goes out of his way to cause damage and death. You can still call such a bloodthirsty runner evil in a world where creatures such as the Shedim exist.

The core problem of the Evil/Good argument is that it is so often tied into the ever changing concept of morality. Morality itself is usually then tied in with a religion that can be interpreted in many different ways. This is where sadly far to many problems in our world come from. A fairly secular definition of evil I've seen is that it is a lack of attempting to restrain yourself from inflicting harm an other person, or seeking out to cause harm disproportional to what is needed.

Good and Evil exist on the ends of a slider bar, most everyone falls somewhere along the line between the two, but this doesn't mean that there can't be people/beings at the ends of the slide.

[MijRai]

The presence of white and black does not obviate the existence of gray or its myriad shades (nor does it mean white or black dominate; usually it's the opposite).  The capability of doing good things for bad reasons (or vice versa) will always be there.  You assertion that as soon as one thing is evil, everything is, is unfeasible.  In fact, having the black morality somewhere is perfect for pointing at it and going 'I'm not as bad as that.' 

I'd also say that claiming shadowrunners are not bound by cultural mores and ethics is wrong too, at least in the grand scheme of things.  Pretty much everyone has their limits on what they will or will not do.  The shadow community has its own codes.  Everyone has a scrap of their upbringing in them.  Some 'runners are practically cyberpunk paladins.  That shadowrunners break the law for a living does not make them morally unbound. 

The idea of 'cheating' itself is pretty subjective; is it cheating to target people during holidays?  Is it cheating to blackmail someone?  Is it cheating if they do it to you too?  My perspective in this case is that there is no cheating, just what you're willing to do. 

[Adamo1618]

The presence of white and black does not obviate the existence of gray or its myriad shades

All fifty of them?

[MijRai]

All fifty of them?

HERETIC! 

[CitizenJoe]

Ok, point at a shedim and say it is evil. But then point to a murdering shadowrunner... evil? Is killing 30 people more evil than just one?  If you say yes, then you're quantifying the value of life.  Then you get into the dilemma of if you kill five people, you'll save 20.  But if you do nothing, the twenty people will die.  Is it good to kill the five?

You might say you're better than the Shedim, but you shoot people in the face for money.  That's evil too.  At least the Shedim have an excuse. So, if the Shedim are evil and you are evil, why am I justified in killing the shedim but not you?  The answer is simple. Evil is irrelevant.   You kill the shedim because they are a threat.  If another runner is a threat then you kill them too.  Not because it is the right thing to do, but because it is expedient.

[Reaver]

.
..
...

Wow. Just..... Wow.


Any more straw men in the closet?

[CitizenJoe]

Seriously.  You declare Shedim evil... Now what? Does that give you a right to kill them? What if they weren't evil?  Could you kill them then?  Are you going to give someone a 10% discount because the target is evil?  How exactly does the evilness of Shedim affect game play in any way?

[MijRai]

Mkay...  Apparently you're missing the whole point of a spectrum ( http://www.bernskiold.com/wp-content/uploads/tutorial-images/photoshop/color-spectrum-wallpaper/media_1294404439316.jpg that is what it looks like, by the way).  Just because something is a little bit 'evil,' (an admittedly subjective term) doesn't make it as bad as something like a Shedim (which could easily be considered the black end of the spectrum).  As flawed as the D&D Alignment system is, even they have a concept for 'Neutral.'  You know, the areas of gray.  Shadowrun has a much wider spectrum of gray, which I prefer. 

By word and deed, Shedim are evil.  There is no redeeming quality, no shade of gray.  There is no excuse.  The problem with Shedim isn't that they possess corpses (I mean, it's not like they were doing anything with them, eh?).  The problem is what they do when they are free to do what they please.  What they want is the death of every living thing.  They act with malicious intent to destroy all life; their very presence kills and destroys.  That is their goal, their desire.  They are irredeemable beings of hatred and malignancy.  On top of that, we are explicitly told in the book that is what Shedim are.  No quibbles, no counter-arguments.  If you change that in your game, you have diverged from canon Shadowrun. 

This isn't an in-character declaration of 'evilness' or a biased interpretation.  It is explicit.  This doesn't confer any right to kill them, believe it or not.  Nothing in the rules confers a 'right' to kill anything to PCs, only the ability.  There is no argument whether they are or not evil, its set in stone.  Somebody may give you a discount for killing them, sure.  This evilness affects the game because of what the Shedim will do.  If there's Shedim in a game, their entire goal is to cause death.  Death can be a shadowrunner's friend, or it can cause complications.  It's hardly irrelevant either way.

[Moonshine Fox]

Seriously.  You declare Shedim evil... Now what? Does that give you a right to kill them? What if they weren't evil?  Could you kill them then?  Are you going to give someone a 10% discount because the target is evil?  How exactly does the evilness of Shedim affect game play in any way?

Actually, you're the one who keeps talking about killing them. We're just stating that they are malevolent sapient beings who only seek to cause death and destruction with no redeeming qualities. A desire to kill them or not would depend on the character you are playing and their motivations. And Shedim and their stated goals serve a function in game of expanding the setting. They may not directly interact with many groups, but the instability they have caused in the Middle East is part of the overall story of the Shadowrun world. They may even be linked to the Horrors, in which case they will become more important later on as the game story progresses.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Hey now! The Horrors are really just cuddly CareBears! All they want to do is hug the world so tightly it explodes with love!! LOVE!!! Oh, and tox mages and blood mages are just misunderstood, and need some friends. And bug spirits just need a home as do the Shedim. Any takers? Anyone?

(PS: This post is complete BS and I know it)

[Dinendae]

Hey now! The Horrors are really just cuddly CareBears! All they want to do is hug the world so tightly it explodes with love!! LOVE!!! Oh, and tox mages and blood mages are just misunderstood, and need some friends. And bug spirits just need a home as do the Shedim. Any takers? Anyone?

(PS: This post is complete BS and I know it)

CitizenJoe is very interested in your message, and would like to hear more!

[Moonshine Fox]

Hey now! The Horrors are really just cuddly CareBears! All they want to do is hug the world so tightly it explodes with love!! LOVE!!! Oh, and tox mages and blood mages are just misunderstood, and need some friends. And bug spirits just need a home as do the Shedim. Any takers? Anyone?

(PS: This post is complete BS and I know it)

The fragging Care Bear Stare is a Horror spawned power, I just know it!

[Dinendae]

Hey now! The Horrors are really just cuddly CareBears! All they want to do is hug the world so tightly it explodes with love!! LOVE!!! Oh, and tox mages and blood mages are just misunderstood, and need some friends. And bug spirits just need a home as do the Shedim. Any takers? Anyone?

(PS: This post is complete BS and I know it)

The fragging Care Bear Stare is a Horror spawned power, I just know it!

Nah, the Care Bears maken even Horrors run screaming in terror! Not to mention the Small Equines Who Shall Remain Nameless!