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Is Shadowrun really this brutal?

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kyoto kid

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« Reply #210 on: <01-31-16/0345:22> »
...had that occurred, it would have at least been a PPK as high force bug spirits are nasty.  Who wants to be the "sacrificial lamb(s)"?

No, you want to take it down before it gets a chance to act.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #211 on: <01-31-16/0359:11> »
Assuming you can. The reason you don't take on a mage or spirit in the middle of their fastness is because they are very much stronger there than otherwise, while you are weaker. And F9 spirit can definitely be nasty, but with edge, any kind of decent armor, and full defense, you should be safe from instant death. Now that you're no longer limited to Body x2 for armor, there's really no excuse for even mages to have less than 12 Armor or so (Lined coat, Forearm guards, helmet/ballistic mask). Sure, it won't be fun, but you should be able to avoid dying outright, which gives you as a team the chance to live, as opposed to an almost certain doom otherwise (unless, as we've said before, you're kitted out for war, or bug hunting).
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #212 on: <01-31-16/0458:25> »
....umm, when did they change the rule for armour encumbrance?

Also if you have the initiative and the firepower, why not take the first shot anyway? Even if you don't put it down you will most likely hurt it and that means negative modifiers for its actions.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #213 on: <01-31-16/0845:09> »
Armor encumbrance has never been like it was in previous editions. You get penalties for + AV items, but not for straight up AV. So a character with all physical attributes at 1 can wear full heavy Mil-Spec armor without any problems. If he picks up a ballistic shield, however, he's in trouble.

Mirikon

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« Reply #214 on: <01-31-16/1059:15> »
Herr B is correct.

And as for the rest, KK, there's a difference between being hurt enough to matter, and being hurt enough to really piss it off. Doing 2-3 boxes of stun damage isn't going to matter to a F9 spirit, it is just going to piss it off and make it come after you. Unless you have a solid shot of putting it down, or at least close enough you only need a couple more boxes to disrupt it, then you are literally just stirring up a wasp's nest.

Frontal assaults on entrenched positions are for the army. Shadowrunners are not the army. Unless you are specifically kitted out for bug hunting or geared up for war, then forget blindly charging into the fray when you see a bug spirit in a high background count area. Fall back, hope it doesn't care about you, and be ready to fight on more favorable ground if it does.
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El Diablo

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« Reply #215 on: <01-31-16/1110:43> »
Assuming you can. The reason you don't take on a mage or spirit in the middle of their fastness is because they are very much stronger there than otherwise, while you are weaker. And F9 spirit can definitely be nasty, but with edge, any kind of decent armor, and full defense, you should be safe from instant death. Now that you're no longer limited to Body x2 for armor, there's really no excuse for even mages to have less than 12 Armor or so (Lined coat, Forearm guards, helmet/ballistic mask). Sure, it won't be fun, but you should be able to avoid dying outright, which gives you as a team the chance to live, as opposed to an almost certain doom otherwise (unless, as we've said before, you're kitted out for war, or bug hunting).

Your Str is gonna limit the accesories you wear. You only need 3/4, though.

Quote
Armor accessories, items listed with a “+” in front of their rating, add to the character’s Armor for the purpose of Damage Resistance tests. The maximum bonus a character receive from these items is limited to their Strength attribute. For every 2 full points by which the bonus exceeds the character’s Strength, the character suffers a –1 penalty to Agility and Reaction.

Page 169, Core.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #216 on: <01-31-16/1143:31> »
So a character with all physical attributes at 1 can wear full heavy Mil-Spec armor without any problems.

You aren't quite correct. Since helmets give a 'plus' to armor, even the helmet will encumber a character with Strength 1 or 2. This means that 'full' heavy military would encumber because to be full it has to have the helmet (full equates being able to use the Chemical Seal if you have it).
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #217 on: <01-31-16/1423:45> »
Only if they wear the helmet. The STR 1 human can still wear heavy Mil-Spec and get 20 harden armor. Part of the armor point is there is generally no reason not to have (and wear) an armor jacket or one of the fancy armors that give an AV of 12.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

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schenn

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« Reply #218 on: <01-31-16/1535:06> »
Something no one has mentioned yet...

Drawing the spirit into an area with a lower background count and engaging it there...
...and give it a chance to act first.  Not a good idea.

If it's going to act either way and you can't harm it at all in the current area. You may as well move it to an area where you can hurt it and use your edge and skills to keep yourself alive instead of trying to just squish it right away.

To use the Mission example where you're in a secret basement when vamps suddenly start to de-mist.  The background count outside of the basement is 2 points lower. Its one movement to make it to the end of the hall and another to climb the ladder out.

This all comes back to, when your in these situations, don't just leap to "How can I squish this thing that's stronger than me", think outside the box and what can you do to shift the fight into your favor.
To use the force 9 bug spirit suddenly appearing example in this thread, it has a 'nest' where it's bg is higher. Immediately outside of the nest, which is likely 1 - 2  full movements away, the bg suddenly drops again.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #219 on: <01-31-16/1547:49> »
Only if they wear the helmet. The STR 1 human can still wear heavy Mil-Spec and get 20 harden armor. Part of the armor point is there is generally no reason not to have (and wear) an armor jacket or one of the fancy armors that give an AV of 12.

I pointed out the helmet because it isn't a FULL suit unless the helmet is worn as well.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #220 on: <01-31-16/1624:00> »
Fair point, All4. You only need Strength 2 though, as penalties doesn't begin until you hit STR+2. With Strength 2, that means AV +3 doesn't give you any penalties. A STR 1 character would receive the penalty since 3 exceeds 1 by two full points, so you're right on that.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #221 on: <02-01-16/0303:21> »
Something no one has mentioned yet...

Drawing the spirit into an area with a lower background count and engaging it there...
...and give it a chance to act first.  Not a good idea.

If it's going to act either way and you can't harm it at all in the current area. You may as well move it to an area where you can hurt it and use your edge and skills to keep yourself alive instead of trying to just squish it right away.

To use the Mission example where you're in a secret basement when vamps suddenly start to de-mist.  The background count outside of the basement is 2 points lower. Its one movement to make it to the end of the hall and another to climb the ladder out.

This all comes back to, when your in these situations, don't just leap to "How can I squish this thing that's stronger than me", think outside the box and what can you do to shift the fight into your favor.
To use the force 9 bug spirit suddenly appearing example in this thread, it has a 'nest' where it's bg is higher. Immediately outside of the nest, which is likely 1 - 2  full movements away, the bg suddenly drops again.
...was in that scenario, actually down in that location the BGC was 4, so at the time, my Adept's weapon focus was useless.

As that chamber is underground, heavy firepower was not a good option. Fortunately the mage in our group had the cleansing metamagic and a Sunbeam spell.

Basically, Chicago is hell for anyone who is awakened.
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #222 on: <02-01-16/0305:57> »
Something no one has mentioned yet...

Drawing the spirit into an area with a lower background count and engaging it there...
...and give it a chance to act first.  Not a good idea.

If it's going to act either way and you can't harm it at all in the current area. You may as well move it to an area where you can hurt it and use your edge and skills to keep yourself alive instead of trying to just squish it right away.

To use the Mission example where you're in a secret basement when vamps suddenly start to de-mist.  The background count outside of the basement is 2 points lower. Its one movement to make it to the end of the hall and another to climb the ladder out.

This all comes back to, when your in these situations, don't just leap to "How can I squish this thing that's stronger than me", think outside the box and what can you do to shift the fight into your favor.
To use the force 9 bug spirit suddenly appearing example in this thread, it has a 'nest' where it's bg is higher. Immediately outside of the nest, which is likely 1 - 2  full movements away, the bg suddenly drops again.
..I dealt with bug spirits in 2E, you don't want to give them a chance to act.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #223 on: <02-01-16/0956:21> »
Yeah, Kid, but we're talking about the difference between starting a fight next to a nuclear reactor, and actually getting into the damn thing to start a fight. Neither is a good choice, but diving headlong into certain death is bad, mmkay?
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« Reply #224 on: <02-01-16/1344:54> »
Never attack an enemy in their stronghold.  Insect spirits are, for all intents and purposes, the best opponents to face; they are predictable in their aggression.  While you be unaware you are about to come upon them, retreating in order to either avoid them entirely or to lure them out of their place of power is by far the better option than, unprepared, continuing to confront them there.
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