[Hobbes]

Also a quick point, Skills A isn't the best way to build a Jack of All Trades character.  It works, it's certainly playable.  But Skill wires with a subscription is better, and so is high Attributes plus 7 Edge.  Skills A would be 3rd place or so in Jack of All Trades builds.  This is another reason Skills A is a trap.  You want to play the character with 10+ dice in everything, Skills A isn't the best way to do it. 

The Skillwires character is built entirely around Skillwires and is your best choice for JoaT.  Adzling's technomancer skillwire build is around here somewhere and is probably about as optimized a JoaT concept as you'll find.  But B attribuites, C Metahuman (human) leave you open to lots of other concepts, and you're likely going to be able to toss 10 dice at about anything.   

[Marcus]

In another thread it was suggested that a discussion of the trap status of Skills A might be stickied as a resource. Though I'm not sure how one requests that.

I  do think a general recommendation guide could be very useful. But I assume we would need to find a Mod who could do the sticking, regardless I doubt they really want a thread labeled skill A is a trap. I do thinks we have covered the ground on this pretty clearly. 

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

.  The DnD 3.5 equivalent might be taking more than 2 levels of fighter - usually not recommended unless you know what you're doing.

If you have more than 2 levels of fighter on your character sheet for ANY REASON than you have morally failed!!!

But seriously  (though seriously NEVER have more than 2 levels of fighter in 3.5) the Skills A is a Trap saying doesn't preclude certain niche concept or builds from using Skills A effectively, it's just that they are never being posted on here asking for help. Anyone asking for help on this board means that Skills A is a Trap for them, if they knew how to build an effective character using Skills A then they wouldn't be asking for help. It's a simple Catch-22 that makes Skills A is a Trap the correct position to take from the framework of helping people design better builds. No one should EVER be given a Bard for their first time playing D&D, no one should ever be given a Skills A character for their first time playing Shadowrun either.

[Soahl]

Given that this conversation has gone so far already I doubt I'm going to say much truly unique here, but here's my two nuyen:

I don't see Skills as the A Priority as a Trap. Unwise for the majority of builds? Assuredly! Not optimal? Oh, definitely. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a trap though. In my time playing Shadowrun and interacting with players new to the system and tabletop games both I've very rarely seen someone actually want to go for Skills A on their first character. Usually they come in with some sort of concept or idea, however loose or vague as they may be, and work toward toward that. Sure, I see a lot of useless skills get picked up and never used, but I've only seen Skills chosen at A once or twice. Usually the highest it gets is B and that's just because of the free Skill Groups.

My opinion is that anything at Priority A is a trap in so much as the big numbers are so very alluring and pull even vets in there to see what they can't make work. Resources A gives just so much money to play with, Attributes A gives you such a good starting point, and Metatype gives you all of the Edge. Magic/Resonance A gives you so many different choices and opportunities that it's ridiculous. But that's the point of the system. All the high ranks in the Priority Structure are alluring and they make you really have to figure out where you want to start and what you want to focus on. I won't say everything is as viable as everything else, but I think Skills A is far from the worst choice a new player could make.

That said, a point that might want to be made here is what "It's a Trap" really means. If it means that it's sub-optimal then forget everything I just said. I don't think it's optimal for anything but very specific builds. But if we're saying that Skills A is a siren song that lures new players into the hazards and cripples their characters, then I strongly disagree. Almost any build can be made quite strong with Skills A. It just won't be the best it could be.

[Whiskeyjack]

Any build CAN be made strong with skills A.

Most builds on this forum with Skills A ARE NOT strong, instead there's 15 skills at rank 3 or 20 at rank 2. There's opposed test dice pools in the 5-9 range. There's extended test skills with dice pools of 4. Etc.

I consider that a siren song situation that suckers people who don't know that having rank 3 in 15 skills is ultimately rather worthtless.

[Kincaid]

It would probably be worthwhile to get a stickied thread that touches on the math side of Shadowrun.

[Hobbes]

Given that this conversation has gone so far already I doubt I'm going to say much truly unique here, but here's my two nuyen:

I don't see Skills as the A Priority as a Trap. Unwise for the majority of builds? Assuredly! Not optimal? Oh, definitely. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a trap though. In my time playing Shadowrun and interacting with players new to the system and tabletop games both I've very rarely seen someone actually want to go for Skills A on their first character. Usually they come in with some sort of concept or idea, however loose or vague as they may be, and work toward toward that. Sure, I see a lot of useless skills get picked up and never used, but I've only seen Skills chosen at A once or twice. Usually the highest it gets is B and that's just because of the free Skill Groups.

My opinion is that anything at Priority A is a trap in so much as the big numbers are so very alluring and pull even vets in there to see what they can't make work. Resources A gives just so much money to play with, Attributes A gives you such a good starting point, and Metatype gives you all of the Edge. Magic/Resonance A gives you so many different choices and opportunities that it's ridiculous. But that's the point of the system. All the high ranks in the Priority Structure are alluring and they make you really have to figure out where you want to start and what you want to focus on. I won't say everything is as viable as everything else, but I think Skills A is far from the worst choice a new player could make.

That said, a point that might want to be made here is what "It's a Trap" really means. If it means that it's sub-optimal then forget everything I just said. I don't think it's optimal for anything but very specific builds. But if we're saying that Skills A is a siren song that lures new players into the hazards and cripples their characters, then I strongly disagree. Almost any build can be made quite strong with Skills A. It just won't be the best it could be.

Trap as in Counter intuitive.  5th edition Shadowrun the ranks in the skill don't matter so much, because its the dice pool you care about.  If you could somehow have a decker with 1 point in Computer, but still have a dice pool of 14 for Matrix Search and Matrix Perception, you're good to go.  (Silly made up numbers to illustrate my point).  For most builds/concepts you're mechanically better off prioritizing other things. 

Also, Trap as in, if you want a character to be good at a lot of things, Skills A isn't the best choice, mechanically. 

[Csjarrat]

Also, Trap as in, if you want a character to be good at a lot of things, Skills A isn't the best choice, mechanically.

Skills A + Attribs B i think is probably the best "generalist" set up (outside of expensive cyber)

[zarzak]

Also, Trap as in, if you want a character to be good at a lot of things, Skills A isn't the best choice, mechanically.

Skills A + Attribs B i think is probably the best "generalist" set up (outside of expensive cyber)

Except its not.  Edge lets you be a much better generalist without hurting things.  No cyber, High attributes + high edge + a decent skillbase (B or C) is mechanically better.  If you go magic thats even better, because spells can replicate a lot of things skills do, and sometimes do them better - though I don't know if the priority works out.

[Whiskeyjack]

Skills A + Attribs B i think is probably the best "generalist" set up (outside of expensive cyber)

I'd say Attributes A (larger base dice pool to more things) + Skills or Resources B (points base or ware to further augment some of the Attributes, and if Resources B then Skills C) + JoAT (and buying multiple new level 1 skills per run).

JoAT is what makes generalist builds more viable this edition, IMO.

[All4BigGuns]

If you have more than 2 levels of fighter on your character sheet for ANY REASON than you have morally failed!!!

Untrue. A single-class Fighter is quite awesome at the higher levels. Best versatility of any combat class. Go into Pathfinder and it's even better.

[Marcus]

Skills A + Attribs B i think is probably the best "generalist" set up (outside of expensive cyber)

There are no shortage of interesting JoaT builds, I happen to think the skill net concept is best, but that really a different discussion, and should be taken to a different thread if we wish to pursue it.

[Csjarrat]

Skills A + Attribs B i think is probably the best "generalist" set up (outside of expensive cyber)

I'd say Attributes A (larger base dice pool to more things) + Skills or Resources B (points base or ware to further augment some of the Attributes, and if Resources B then Skills C) + JoAT (and buying multiple new level 1 skills per run).

JoAT is what makes generalist builds more viable this edition, IMO.

Yeah, thats probably decent for a long-term outlook but i think a "generalist" is pretty different to a "Jack-of-all-trades".
Generalist i see as someone who does a very diverse set of things well and a jack of all trades is someone who does nearly everything, but is only moderately good at most of them.

A generalist like the one i posted up earlier in the thread is good in a fight, has a variety of "on-run" skills (lockpicking, sneaking etc), decent social skills and decent legwork skills too, but there is plenty he can't do (like scuba diving, or hacking etc). a JoaT type guy is going to want some dice in pretty much every skill as part of the character concept. i'd def say the skillsoft network is the best way of achieving that
For me, being able to have so many skills at R5+ sits well with attribs B because you can have all stats at 3 and still have 4 more spare attrib points to divide as you need and 140k to spend on cyber (before in debt or karma-to-cash) to get attrib and skill boosters.

[All4BigGuns]

Skills A + Attribs B i think is probably the best "generalist" set up (outside of expensive cyber)

I'd say Attributes A (larger base dice pool to more things) + Skills or Resources B (points base or ware to further augment some of the Attributes, and if Resources B then Skills C) + JoAT (and buying multiple new level 1 skills per run).

JoAT is what makes generalist builds more viable this edition, IMO.

Yeah, thats probably decent for a long-term outlook but i think a "generalist" is pretty different to a "Jack-of-all-trades".
Generalist i see as someone who does a very diverse set of things well and a jack of all trades is someone who does nearly everything, but is only moderately good at most of them.

A generalist like the one i posted up earlier in the thread is good in a fight, has a variety of "on-run" skills (lockpicking, sneaking etc), decent social skills and decent legwork skills too, but there is plenty he can't do (like scuba diving, or hacking etc). a JoaT type guy is going to want some dice in pretty much every skill as part of the character concept. i'd def say the skillsoft network is the best way of achieving that
For me, being able to have so many skills at R5+ sits well with attribs B because you can have all stats at 3 and still have 4 more spare attrib points to divide as you need and 140k to spend on cyber (before in debt or karma-to-cash) to get attrib and skill boosters.

The "Master of None" is the most important part of "Jack of all Trades", but is often left out when mentioning.

The more you try to be able to do, the less effective you'll be when you try to do anything.

[zarzak]

If you have more than 2 levels of fighter on your character sheet for ANY REASON than you have morally failed!!!

Untrue. A single-class Fighter is quite awesome at the higher levels. Best versatility of any combat class. Go into Pathfinder and it's even better.

Not to get derailed, but prestige classes and book of nine swords make that untrue.  Paladin/Ranger are usually even better due to spells.  Pathfinder tried to fix this, and 5e does an even better job.

*ahem*

Back on track ...

imho having a high edge + attributes is better for a generalist (or jack of all trades) then skills A.  Reason being that high attributes give you a good baseline for every school (since dicepool is all that matter), and edge lets you excel at any skill whenever you need to.  Its more efficient then trying to have high skills in everything, and then lets you give your character some other focus as well.