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The doors in Big D's will

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #30 on: <09-09-15/1105:59> »
Jerks dupe the population into voting for them, just so they can access the magical power accessible from the Name President of the UCAS. Then, rather than fulfilling campaign promises fakes a murder, uses blood magic, and takes a bunch of people with him into an astral rift.

Now as far as committing suicide for the greater good, I'll just point at any number of suicide bombers and get this thread locked.

Teknodragon

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« Reply #31 on: <09-09-15/1140:15> »
Dunkelzahn was a charasmatic, nice dragon.

He was also a successful great dragon. Inhuman, powerful (and a running theme in Shadowrun is about how power corrupts), used to maneuvers centuries long in the making, against those used to that and more.

Nice, charismatic, winning of the hearts of the UCAS. Just like successful corporate spokesmen everywhere.
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Red_Cap

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« Reply #32 on: <09-09-15/1144:16> »
Jerks dupe the population into voting for them, just so they can access the magical power accessible from the Name President of the UCAS. Then, rather than fulfilling campaign promises fakes a murder, uses blood magic, and takes a bunch of people with him into an astral rift.

Now as far as committing suicide for the greater good, I'll just point at any number of suicide bombers and get this thread locked.

I didn't say anything about "the greater good."  I said "impending apocalypse."  Big difference.
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #33 on: <09-09-15/1325:10> »
This brings us to the Dunkelzahn is a Jerk Hypothesis.  This is along the lines of Superdickery... don't go there if you have work to do.  Dunkelzahn's Will has dozens of things that prove he was a dick.  I can point out the Dickery from his first encounter in the Sixth World.  Where was he found? Where was his lair?  Whose lair was in proximity to where Dunkelzahn was first found? Dunk was caught red handed looting another dragon's lair and then spun it as a media event.

I addition to what Red_Cap said, you can't apply metahuman standards of jerkiness to him easily because he was a fragging DRAGON!!! They tend to have a different set of rules and values then we do. Yeah, there was some jerk things in his will, but if you read these entries, it sounds like those people deserved it. A lot more of it was granting wishes and issuing SINs and encuragment for tech and mystic developments or to push people in directions that he thought would be good for them (ie, the chess set). He also paid back a debt with LOTS of interest from a debt that could have been as far back as the 4th age. He tried to do right by the world at large, not just his race like other dragons might.

He didn't fake a murder, he did kill himself. Also, show me where he used mystic associations with the presidental legacy for extra power. He used the power that could only be gained from his own death at that point in the awakening. I think he even lamented that the issue came to a head quicker then he had thought as the Songbird wasen't holding back the horrors like she had in the past due to the aformentioned AZT blood magic cabal corrupting the astral area around her. It's debatable if he know that his death would rip open the rift or cause the deaths it did, but he could have seen those deaths as a sad cost of saving Billions of other lives. Needs of the many and all that, and not even dragons know all there is to know about magic in the 6th age.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #34 on: <09-09-15/1345:58> »
Re: 4th World Debt.  There is no proof that the debt existed.  Dunkelzahn gave a very large sum of money to an unstable man with a grudge against Richard Villiers.  The end result was a lot of deaths and chaos. 

Re: the power of the President of the UCAS.  A 4th World magic technique came from something called Naming.  When you give something a Name you give it power.  The Name "The President of the UCAS" has a lot of power.  By becoming the President, he gained access to that power.  Check the Will.  Is it feasible that he included all of the specific dates and instructions if he did not have plans for suiciding when he did?  He could have implemented his plan at any time, but he waited until just after he was inaugurated.   He needed the extra power from the UCAS to implement his plan.

MijRai

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« Reply #35 on: <09-09-15/1511:15> »
Or he wanted to be inaugurated as an example of how humanity can let non-humans take office and all that.  He was a big, shining star for the whole equal rights thing.  He could easily have gone 'well, I need to sacrifice myself, but may as well do something good along the way...'
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #36 on: <09-09-15/1530:50> »
I always love listening to you, CitJoe.  I wonder how many other devs read you for ideas for Plan 9.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #37 on: <09-09-15/1535:20> »
I really need to get the whole theory published.   I just don't time right now due to work.

Nath

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« Reply #38 on: <09-09-15/1931:56> »
Fuchi / Novatech / NeoNET: JRJ International was never 'picked up' - it was a quiet internal transfer by the primary (and, technically, constant) owner, Richard Villiers, from Fuchi Americas to Novatech.  That transfer, when Villiers made Novatech public, allowed Villiers to a) swipe a corporate court member from Fuchi (as one is permanently assigned to JRJ-or-its-parent-corporation) and therefore b) become a AAA megacorp by default.  When Novatech pulled the IPO and wound up merging with Erika and Transys Neuronet, the new corporation (NeoNET, literally 'New Novatech-Erika-Transys') became the parent - though you can bet your toes that Villiers remains the overwhelming shareholder of JRJ International.
While the sourcebooks do refer to an arrangement that make JRJ International a subsidiary of Neonet and a personal holding of Richard Villiers, it is the financial equivalent of a 30-tons flying lizard: it can be written in a sourcebook, but it's nonetheless not actually possible without magic. The very definition of subsidiary status requires majority ownership. If Neonet doesn't own a majority of JRJ stock, it's not a subsidiary (and thus it doesn't receive its AAA rating). If JRJ owns a majority of JRJ stock, then Richard Villiers is not "personnally owning it".
What's possible is Villiers having stock options that allow him to take JRJ control back in a snap.

BMW --> Saeder-Krupp, ORO --> Aztechnology, Yamatetsu --> EVO: naming conventions
BMW still appears as a subsidiary of the Saeder-Krupp group. How the group was actually restructured to form Saeder-Krupp is not clear (Corporate Shadowfiles and Corporate Guide don't even agree if it happened under Michel Beloit or Lofwyr). Indeed, they would have been silly not to keep the founding prime megacorporation as the head company and rename it.

They could have done it because they intended the company to remain headquartered in Germany. Fuchi or Renraku could not do it because they were Japanese companies who took over respectively an US and a Slovenian company.

Although it doesn't have any significant consequence, this also applies to Yamatetsu/Evo. Evo is Yamatetsu renamed. But Yamatetsu is not Yamatetsu. That is, there is a Yamatetsu company incorporated in Russia who is legally a different company from the Yamatetsu company incorporated in Japan.

I hear you say "They are extraterritorial megacorporation. Where they are headquartered doesn't matter. They are their own country." It actually does (besides, no, they are not countries). Megacorporations can write their own law to apply to their employees and inside their facilities. But shareholders are not employees. They own the megacorporation. A CEO cannot "revoke" shareholders he doesn't like. Damien Knight would have done it a long time ago if he could ; even Aztechnology could not legally remove Oliver McLure from its board. Besides, megacorporation also are shareholders themselves, and they likely don't want their subsidiaries to be able to "secede" from the parent company. The entire megacorporate system relies on ownership rights. Shareholder ownership is established by the laws of the land a corporation was incorporated in. That makes the country megacorporation are headquartered in important.

There are rules so that the extraterritorial privileges granted by the Corporate Court extend to parent companies and subsidiaries. But each of those are distinct legal persons. And the Fuchi/JRJ case shows that those rules nonetheless strictly prevent founding status to be transfered (otherwise, their lawyers would have it done).

So the Corporate Court acknowledges for instance Keruba of Slovenia as one of its founding member, a company incorporated under Slovanian laws. Keruba/Renraku can incorporate "Keruba" companies all over the world and transfer them ownership of the group, only the company in Slovenia (whatever its name may now be) has a founding status.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #39 on: <09-09-15/2155:26> »
The distinction between an AA corp and an AAA corp is that AAA corps *control* a seat on the Corporate Court. The seven founding companies have permanent seats. Ares, Shiawase, Mitsuhama, ORO, Keruba, BMW, JRJ. If you control one of those companies, even if that company is just a holding company, you control who it puts in the seat.  And since you control that, you are therefore a AAA CORP.  They aren't otherwise fundamentally different from an AA corp.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #40 on: <09-09-15/2253:07> »
The distinction between an AA corp and an AAA corp is that AAA corps *control* a seat on the Corporate Court. The seven founding companies have permanent seats. Ares, Shiawase, Mitsuhama, ORO, Keruba, BMW, JRJ. If you control one of those companies, even if that company is just a holding company, you control who it puts in the seat.  And since you control that, you are therefore a AAA CORP.  They aren't otherwise fundamentally different from an AA corp.
Each AAA megacorp also owns an equal percentage of the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #41 on: <09-10-15/0053:42> »
Though it's arguable that if you can acquire a justice, you're automatically worthy of a right to that equal (up to 1/13th) percentage of the ZOG.  Of course, this really does mean that there is a fundamental difference between a AA-rated corporation and a AAA-rated megacorporation - the ability to influence the most powerful of your peers into acknowledging your equality with them.  And that's something that, so far, only a very exclusive number of corporations outside of the Starting Seven have managed to do ...
Pananagutan & End/Line

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #42 on: <09-10-15/0641:13> »
One thing that bugs me is that they HAD seven members.  That means no ties in voting. But then they went to 8... and then, instead on 9, they jumped to 10. It's like they want hung huries.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #43 on: <09-10-15/0859:47> »
... which is why they have 13 justices.  They will never have a tie, because at this level, no justice is going to abstain.  And from time to time, even if one corporation possesses multiple justices, they may just split their vote onto either side of the issue at hand.  Do you ever actually read the source material?
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Nath

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« Reply #44 on: <09-10-15/1717:00> »
Each AAA megacorp also owns an equal percentage of the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank.
Refering to percentage is an unnecessary complication. The Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank actually issued just one share to each AAA megacorporation. It's a stock that cannot be split, and cannot be traded anyway. The complete illiquidity of a share accounting for one tenth of trillions of nuyen in assets is thus not an issue.