[UnLimiTeD]

In my groups, a score of *insert minimum here* is always some kind of deficiency in a upper teenage to early retirement age, aka adult, individual.
Aka, having a body of 1 is somewhere close to glass bones.
If someone tried to minmax and make a mage with 1 agi and strength, I'd let him roll everytime he tried to take the stairs.

[zarzak]

In my groups, a score of *insert minimum here* is always some kind of deficiency in a upper teenage to early retirement age, aka adult, individual.
Aka, having a body of 1 is somewhere close to glass bones.
If someone tried to minmax and make a mage with 1 agi and strength, I'd let him roll everytime he tried to take the stairs.

The thing is that 1-6 is the range for a normal human.  So a 1 isn't a deficiency, rather its just at the low end of normal.  A true deficiency would be represented by a negative quality, where you're actively punished in some respect.  The drawbacks you take on the varying types of rolls from having a 1 is the only mechanical disadvantage to taking a 1.

[Hobbes]

i would be cool with him being competent in planning combat maneuvers that weren't that out of the box or highly unorthodox.

executing the maneuvers in R&G? Absolutely, thats what training is for.

that's a whole world of difference from multi-part, complicated and nuanced run planning involving multi-variate strategies beyond bang bang.

but then i wouldn't permit a character with two dump stats of 1 at my table.

so yeah, ymmv.

First off Shadowruns just aren't that complicated.  Rolling out an ERP system for a Fortune 500 company is complicated.  Invading Russia in the Winter is complicated.   Shadowruns are simple, typically a single objective, with pretty well known types of challenges.  The details sometimes get you, but for the most part Shadowruns break down to variations on a handful of themes.  Look at the Random Run Generator, there is a reason the "Run Type" is a single d6. 

Shadowrun has some excellent modules and I've played in many campaigns.  But no single part of a run was so complicated it couldn't be explained in a paragraph or two.  Twists all over the place.  Betrayal, certainly.  Drama, high stakes, anticipation, celebration and disappointment.  But complicated?  The most complicated part of Shadowrun is chargen.  Or possibly the Matrix rules.

And no two dump stats of 1?  Do you simply grey out choice C, D and E on the priority table for Attributes?  What do you do with a Meta-human that isn't playing to type?  Or Dwarf's with a 3 Body, 3 Str trying to play a decker or rigger character? 

[Hobbes]

If someone tried to minmax and make a mage with 1 agi and strength, I'd let him roll everytime he tried to take the stairs.

Making a character roll for something other characters don't have to roll for is a specific negative quality.  Incompetent p. 81 of the basic book.  Are you going to hand out free Positive qualities as well or just punish one player for no reason? 

[Hobbes]

Senko you don't need those prime stats at 6, 5 is fine.
at my table taking a single stat at 1 is fair game.
if you want the uber stats you must invest.

Hobbes actually at our table our part time face with a Cha of 4 gets along quite fine most often.

I should think that a character with a stat of 4 and presumably some level of skill, power and/or augmentation investment "gets along quite fine most often."  How about the character with a 2 in a stat and no applicable skill for whatever activity you're involved in?  I bet they fail.  They fail at my table too.  As a team, you generally don't let those characters get into those situations.  Unless it's going to be funny. 

[SoulGambit]

Making a character roll more often because they have an attribute lower is obsurd. Note that if you made the Agi 3 Strength 3 character roll to go up the stairs, he'd still fail about 30% of the time. >_>

[Glyph]

Low Attributes already have built-in penalties, but there are two things to keep in mind before you start going crazy with additional hindrances. 

First, a low Attribute may fail most of the time, but even a threshold: 1 test presents some modicum of difficulty.  For ordinary things, someone with a low Attribute will be fine - in other words, someone with Charisma: 1 might not be good at picking up strangers in bars, but would be fine using a dating service or hiring an escort.  Similarly, someone with Reaction: 1 might not ever be able to make a bootlegger turn without crashing, but driving down to the Stuffer Shack on Gridguide shouldn't present any problems.  Someone who has problems doing everyday things needs to have an additional negative quality (uncouth, infirm, etc.).

Secondly, a low Attribute is ludicrously easy to improve.  25 Karma and five weeks of some type of training, and you can increase an Attribute from 1, the absolute lowest rating, to 3, comfortably average.  That's why I tend to think of someone with Body and/or Strength of 1 as a couch potato, rather than an invalid; someone with a Charisma of 1 as socially awkward, rather than a smelly outcast; someone with Logic of 1 as someone who has vegged in front of the tridscreen and not used his brain that much, rather than developmentally disabled.

[adzling]

hehe agreed this ain't an ERP system, thank god right?

but hot damn some runs actually verge on this kind of complexity at our table.

When you're managing a fleet of drones, decker, mage, astral reconnaissance, complicated planning around social engineering, etc etc and then adjusting on the fly to opponents doing very similar things to you you very quickly get beyond straight forward single outcome scenarios that are easily planned by relatively dumb/ mentally inflexible characters.

Hardcore planning does indeed go on and on-the-fly adjustments combined with backup plans are common place.
And while I am happy to say that no one at our table has a logic 1 character (even the orc sam is at 3) most are at 3 or 4, competent but not genius.

there are also plenty of straightforward bang-bang, fast talk the guard stuff too, it's important to mix it up after all.

i would be cool with him being competent in planning combat maneuvers that weren't that out of the box or highly unorthodox.

executing the maneuvers in R&G? Absolutely, thats what training is for.

that's a whole world of difference from multi-part, complicated and nuanced run planning involving multi-variate strategies beyond bang bang.

but then i wouldn't permit a character with two dump stats of 1 at my table.

so yeah, ymmv.

First off Shadowruns just aren't that complicated.  Rolling out an ERP system for a Fortune 500 company is complicated.  Invading Russia in the Winter is complicated.   Shadowruns are simple, typically a single objective, with pretty well known types of challenges.  The details sometimes get you, but for the most part Shadowruns break down to variations on a handful of themes.  Look at the Random Run Generator, there is a reason the "Run Type" is a single d6. 

Shadowrun has some excellent modules and I've played in many campaigns.  But no single part of a run was so complicated it couldn't be explained in a paragraph or two.  Twists all over the place.  Betrayal, certainly.  Drama, high stakes, anticipation, celebration and disappointment.  But complicated?  The most complicated part of Shadowrun is chargen.  Or possibly the Matrix rules.

And no two dump stats of 1?  Do you simply grey out choice C, D and E on the priority table for Attributes?  What do you do with a Meta-human that isn't playing to type?  Or Dwarf's with a 3 Body, 3 Str trying to play a decker or rigger character?

[Herr Brackhaus]

Well put, Glyph. I wholeheartedly agree.

[adzling]

agree 100%

Low Attributes already have built-in penalties, but there are two things to keep in mind before you start going crazy with additional hindrances. 

First, a low Attribute may fail most of the time, but even a threshold: 1 test presents some modicum of difficulty.  For ordinary things, someone with a low Attribute will be fine - in other words, someone with Charisma: 1 might not be good at picking up strangers in bars, but would be fine using a dating service or hiring an escort.  Similarly, someone with Reaction: 1 might not ever be able to make a bootlegger turn without crashing, but driving down to the Stuffer Shack on Gridguide shouldn't present any problems.  Someone who has problems doing everyday things needs to have an additional negative quality (uncouth, infirm, etc.).

Secondly, a low Attribute is ludicrously easy to improve.  25 Karma and five weeks of some type of training, and you can increase an Attribute from 1, the absolute lowest rating, to 3, comfortably average.  That's why I tend to think of someone with Body and/or Strength of 1 as a couch potato, rather than an invalid; someone with a Charisma of 1 as socially awkward, rather than a smelly outcast; someone with Logic of 1 as someone who has vegged in front of the tridscreen and not used his brain that much, rather than developmentally disabled.

[Senko]

Senko you don't need those prime stats at 6, 5 is fine.
at my table taking a single stat at 1 is fair game.
if you want the uber stats you must invest.

Hobbes actually at our table our part time face with a Cha of 4 gets along quite fine most often.

Then I think I'd enjoy playing in your game.

So basically we seem to have a disconnect over the negative impact quality with some people seeing 1 as the "MINIMUM" for a human and others seeing it as the minimum for normal human e.g. teenage girl who doesn't do strength exercises and is naturally slender. Again why I prefer Cthulu's defining stats to real world examples rather than an abstract weak, average, strong. I admit 1 as low end bell curve couch potato makes me  more comfortable having them but then on that same token you can't really object to the mage (for example) having physical stats of 1 because they spent all their time snacking on sugary treats and lounging in a comfortable chair studying rather than exercising. Its probably made worse by the "optimize" a character for only a few skills and relevant dice pools of 16+ at creation.

[Hobbes]

When you're managing a fleet of drones, decker, mage, astral reconnaissance, complicated planning around social engineering, etc etc and then adjusting on the fly to opponents doing very similar things to you you very quickly get beyond straight forward single outcome scenarios that are easily planned by relatively dumb/ mentally inflexible characters.

High Logic doesn't imply mental flexibility.  *shrug*

LOGIC (LOG)
The Logic attribute measures the cold, calculating
power of your rational mind

INTUITION (INT)
Intuition is the voice of your gut, the instinct that
tells you things before your logical brain can figure them
out.

[adzling]

Funny, I've never met an unitelligent person who was mentally flexible.
Creative problem solving demands it.

Although I have met a few otherwise highly intelligent people who were very inflexible mentally, but in my experience they are the exception rather than the rule.

[zarzak]

Funny, I've never met an unitelligent person who was mentally flexible.
Creative problem solving demands it.

Although I have met a few otherwise highly intelligent people who were very inflexible mentally, but in my experience they are the exception rather than the rule.

The game doesn't correlate to reality very well with mental stats.  Generally intelligent people would have high logic and intuition.  However you can easily modify those numbers in the game to make more 'interesting' combinations of individuals.

[NovaHot1]

If someone tried to minmax and make a mage with 1 agi and strength, I'd let him roll everytime he tried to take the stairs.

Making a character roll for something other characters don't have to roll for is a specific negative quality.  Incompetent p. 81 of the basic book.  Are you going to hand out free Positive qualities as well or just punish one player for no reason?

No. Incompetent applies to skills. Active skills, specifically. Uncouth would be social skills. Uneducated is for knowledge skills.

Having a 1 in an attribute is pretty much the same thing, but for attributes. Yes, YMMV. That is 100% a given.

As far as the range, let's take Strength for example. Strength 1 is barely able to stand under his own power. Able to, yes. But barely. Strength 6 is Schwarzenegger, while Strength 7 (w/exceptional attribute) would be The Mountain from GoT.  So 1-6 is not really the normal or average range for humans, it's just the range period.

A single 1 at my table, sure. But you're gonna suffer on all related tests until it's raised. Two or more at a 1, you're not a Shadowrunner. Shadowruners are a cut above the rest of normal people because a normal person trying to be a Shadowrunner is a corpse the first time they step out.

Nice shoutout to Maverick from Arcology. That character cracks me up, and the player really plays that 1 in character.