[All4BigGuns]

If you were to segregate the fluff and mechanics totally in Man and Machine, you might end up with 25 pages of the fluff out of that 160. Do the same with the 5e counter part you would likely end up with close to 200 pages of fluff. This is ludicrous for a core rules supplement.

[tytalan]

Descriptions of the new items listed in the book are not fluff if you want a game that is all mechanics try hero system.  You can not seem to count it seems Chrome Flesh is running by my count about half and half as far as fluff goes if your a player and not a GM.  More like 25% fluff 75% rules and useful information  for a GM. and still more than Doubles the number of new cyberware and other toys when compared to Man and Machine.  Sorry there are not enough Big guns for you.

[All4BigGuns]

Cyber chapter probably has about 2/3 what M&M had in it, and you have to dig through a mountain of fluff at the beginning to get to it.

Bioware chapter probably has 1/2 what M&M had in it, and you again have to dig through that mountain before getting to it.

[tytalan]

So were not suppose to count cyberware that you do not like Okay your right this is a bad book just send your copy to me and I will make sure it get into the hands of someone that can use it.  Meanwhile I'll understand that you do not run the game and think that all the books should only have stuff for players not info for the Game Master's who works so hard to make your weekly games fun and interesting.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

I went through Chrome Flesh and Data Trails.  If a page had a rule on it, the page number is included below.  (So I'm counting as "rules pages" a lot of what people might call "fluff pages".)

Chrome Flesh:  Pages 25, 50-65, 71-93, 107-124, 145-167, 176, 179-193, 222-238
= 114 "rules pages" (48% of a 240-page book)

Data Trails:  Pages 43-49, 51-53, 55-66, 76-77, 86-88, 90-91, 93, 95-96, 98, 100, 102-105, 110-120, 145-165, 178-182
= 75 "rules pages" (41% of a 184-page book)

Both of these Core Handbooks are over 50% fluff (Data Trails is nearly 60% fluff), even counting entire pages as "rules" that really only have rules in a tiny sidebar or for a single statblock.

For comparison, Man & Machine (SR3):  Pages 13-50, 54-60, 62-79, 90-100, 105-124, 126-136, 138-140, 142-158 (Plus an index, which I'm not counting!)
= 125 "rules pages" (more than 3/4 of a 160-page book)

And Augmentation (SR4):  Pages 20-23, 31-49, 60-71, 86-94, 105-117, 120-135, 151-176
= 99 "rules pages" (56% of a 176-page book)

[All4BigGuns]

Meanwhile I'll understand that you do not run the game and think that all the books should only have stuff for players not info for the Game Master's who works so hard to make your weekly games fun and interesting.

I am specifically talking about Core Rules Supplements. These things should be expanding on the rules for the character types that their material influences. Both Data Trails and Chrome Flesh fail at that in favor of throwing several stories in that just take up space. Those could easily have been done as a novella or story anthology for those interested in them in order to make room for rules expansion and clarification.

[tytalan]

So GM's should not get any rule support or background support?  WOW!  You most hate your GM.  I agree that they should keep the short stories down to one per sourcebook but the rest I see as very useful.  But than I'm an evil GM.

[Wakshaani]

Cyber chapter probably has about 2/3 what M&M had in it, and you have to dig through a mountain of fluff at the beginning to get to it.

Bioware chapter probably has 1/2 what M&M had in it, and you again have to dig through that mountain before getting to it.

Cyber has almost double what Augmentation had for 4th edition.

Bio has almost double what Augmentation had in 4th edition.

I tried to include everything from both chapters that wasn't in the main book, minus a couple of things, then added about the same number of new things on top of that. You might want to do a parts count. (And, yes, there's also lots of fluff for each on top of that! I like writing, what can I say?)

[tytalan]

 Thank you Wakshaani from this GM to you I love the book the only thing I agree with these people is that we should cut down to one short story pre book.  The rest should go into a companion anthology

[Wakshaani]

Oh, there're vbalid points in BigGuns' stuff, don't think I'm dismissing him! The modular limbs needed more page space, for instance, to really hammer them out, and the Wireless Router is gonna be the albatross I wear for a while, but raw page count isn't always the best measure of content.

For instance, Arsenal has 8 pages of drones, generating 28 drones.

SR5 Core has 2 pages of drones, generating 11 drones.

Rigger Black Book had 8 pages of drones, generating 9 drones.

There's a lot of different value in each one, with art, descriptions, fluff, and rules all in different ratios.

Compare Run and Gun to, say, the Street Samurai Catelogue (A word I never, ever manage to spell correctly, ack!) ... Different books have different ratios. People tend to value different things differently! Some feel bad if new toys don't have art, for example, while others don't care. Some don't care about fluff, while other people eat up things like:

"The CAS 'Alabama'-class air superiority fighter is awesome, with tight turns, great climb, and a surprisingly cutting-edge aiming system for dogfights (even if that kind of combat is so last century) ... but if you get one on your tail, here's a hint: They can't dive to the right. Cuts off the flow of gas to the engine and they stall out. Small design flaw that could save your life.-"  Kane

No mechanical note whatsoever, pure fluff, but *neat*, and has historical parallel. (And a terrible name. There's a reason I don't name planes!)

Trying to give everybody something they'd like is tricky, but I'd rather give everybody a lil' than give one person everything and the rest nothing. Forty pages of drone stats in the Sr5 statblock style, with nary a description of anything? I'd pull my teeth out with a pair of pliers.

[tytalan]

I agree and I hope your talking about 4th's rigger's black book I've been hopping for a true Rigger's book since the begining all I keep getting is a vehicle guide with a couple of Rigger rules throw in.  In the pass everyone  has gotten more out of the RBB than the Rigger's have. I hope that will change in this edition

[adzling]

Some fluff is important, no doubt.
For example product or item descriptions as you note Wak.

It's the endless reams of fan-fic and shovel-text that you have to wade through to find the actual content.
It's made 100% worse by not having a TOC that is helpful in the slightest.

[All4BigGuns]

So GM's should not get any rule support or background support?  WOW!  You most hate your GM.

How about you stop trying to 'put words in the mouth' of others? Edit: Oh, and stop telling people that because they disagree with your seemingly anti-mechanics standpoint that they should go to a different game.

"Fluff" can (and does) change from table to table, so it needs to be kept as light and general as possible. Edit- At least in core rules supplements that players will be using for character generation. Specific story lines can be good, but aren't suitable for inclusion in a source heavily used by players. One person pointed out the reason for this already. It dilutes them and kind of kills the surprise of the story line.

Rules and mechanics, however, should be identical at every table barring usage of printed Optional Rules. This means that rules and mechanics need to be as specific, clear and comprehensive as possible (there should be a rule covering 99.9% of situations a group may encounter).

For comparison, Man & Machine (SR3):  Pages 13-50, 54-60, 62-79, 90-100, 105-124, 126-136, 138-140, 142-158 (Plus an index, which I'm not counting!)
= 125 "rules pages" (more than 3/4 of a 160-page book)

Wakshaani, this is a good baseline to go by, only every "rule page" needs to be significantly rules rather than a sidebar or single line here and there.

A need to put more focus on actual rules and mechanics is the only weakness you have, man.

[$/@mm-0!]

Descriptions of the new items listed in the book are not fluff if you want a game that is all mechanics try hero system.

I'm currently attempting that with the main 5th ed book to see how it works out.

[Patrick Goodman]

EDIT
Asked to remove because it was considered beneath me. Not sure I agree, but it's gone nonetheless.

Not for nothing, but PMs on these forums are a TERRIBLE way to attract my attention....