[Sabato Kuroi]

What I'm trying to say is...if drones  get too many  dice for soaking, then the need for actual combatants disappears.

The other day I was GMing my group and the decker was being chased by a pack of hellhounds.The combat adept and the street sammy had their hands full, trying to survive an encounter with a Toxic Spirit and the Rigger was 1km away, along with her combat drones.

Eventually the hellhounds caught up with the decker and they KOed him in the second combat round.
They didn't have the chance to eat him though since the rigger jumped in one of her Rotordrones and covered the distance pretty easily

I mean flight capability + speed 6 (base speed 4 +2 from control rig ) + gearhead (+20% speed) + ares alpha (great firing range) made that 1 km  seem like nothing.

What I'm trying to say is...I'd love to see a book for riggers, but drones are pretty useful as they are, they shouldn't become OP.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Drones are glass cannons. I'd like to see that addressed, somehow. Just piling on the armor isn't the way I'd personally prefer changes, but that's just me.

I would like to address the Speed attribute of your riggers drone; I believe the +Rating of the Control Rig applies to the Limits of your vehicle and not the Attributes.

When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig[/u]. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger.

This is useful for car chases, for example, where Handling or Speed is used as a Limit, but it doesn't mean a Speed 6 Suzuki Mirage (160m/CT walking rate, 320m/CT running rate, or a top speed of 384km/h) suddenly gains a massive increase in speed and gains a Speed 9 Attribute simply because a rigger with a Rating 3 control rig jumps into it (Speed 9 is 1280m/CT walking rate and 2560m/CT running rate, or a top speed of just under Mach 3). Instead, in the example above the motorcycle would be much easier to control for said rigger, having a Speed Limit of 9 and a Handling Limit of 8/6 when engaging in Chase Combat.

[Rosa]

Drones may or may not be glass cannons, i however think that that is the way it should be. Drones are very versatile, they can pack a heavy punch or be all sneaky and ambushy, they are great for spying and following people...etc. If they all of a sudden become harder to take out, i have to agree with the OP that the need for actual people in combat would disappear, not to mention vehicles, which i see as the riggers less versatile but more durable alternative to drones.

I agree with the interpretation the the control rigs rating increases the limits of the vehicles/ drones not their actual attributes.

[Sabato Kuroi]

Don't know if this has been adressed in any FAQs or Erratta but in p.452 it says :

Control Rig: Additionally, the rating of your  control rig is added to the handling and speed of any vehicle you are  jumped into


As for drones being glass cannons...well imho this is what makes them more balanced.Sure, some more armor can't hurt but if they become just as durable as pcs then they will be OP

[Herr Brackhaus]

Yeah, I'm of the impression that page 452 should read "the rating of your control is added to the Handling and Speed *LIMIT* of ...". Good note for Errata to my mind.

I may be biased in terms of drones; I really like the idea of using mechs (think Elysium and Chappie) as a police or even military force multiplier. Should they be invulnerable? No, not by a longshot. But I am personally of the opinion that they need more options than they currently have, because even the Steel Lynx, which is designed to be a combat model, is laughably fragile in my opinion. To each their own, I guess.

[SichoPhiend]

Don't know if this has been adressed in any FAQs or Erratta but in p.452 it says :

Control Rig: Additionally, the rating of your  control rig is added to the handling and speed of any vehicle you are  jumped into

Unfortunately, this has not been addressed in the errata, but I am in agreement that the rule on p.266 is what is intended.  To me it seems likely that p.452 was just poorly summarized from the rules on p.266

[Senko]

Maybe do it in categories that trade off then? for a rough example . . .

No Armour = Max Speed/Handling.
Poor Armour = light reduction in speed/handling or Speed/handling limit.
Medium Armour = moderate reduction in speed handling or speed/handling limit.
Heavy Armour = Heavy reduction in speed/handling or speed/handling limit.

I use the or because I have nowhere near the experience in these to judge it properly it might need to be an and. To use the numbers in the OP's post.

No Armour = speed 6
Light Armour = Speed 5.
Medium Armour = Speed 4.
Heavy Armour = Speed 2.

So the more you load a drone up with armour the harder it gets to hurt it but at the same time it gets slower and less maneuverable because of all the mass providing inertia. So a heavy combat drone guarding a secret facilities entrance is hard to hurt but easy to outrun and if you get round it takes a lot of effort to actually turn it around. Driving a sports car vs driving a tank or a heavy truck if that helps.

[Mirikon]

If you think that simply having a bunch of heavily armored combat drones eliminates the need for actual combatants, then either you've never dealt with a halfway competent GM, or you're fragging crazy.

As with anything in Shadowrun, there are strengths and weaknesses to using drones. The biggest weakness of drones is that there is a whole archetype out there that focuses precisely on taking technological toys away from people and making them their own. They're called Hackers. Any group running around with only combat drones as their attack force is asking to have a hacker turn the drones on them and rip them to shreds. Or for a mage to drop a Powerbolt or six on them. Direct physical combat spells are MURDER on drones, with their relatively light Body scores.

The drones in 4th edition (especially those designed for combat) were hardy enough to not fall apart the first time someone looked at them wrong, but certainly never replaced the need for meat body combatants in any game I played in or witnessed. Indeed, it is my profound hope that they don't butcher the customization options for drones and vehicles like they did with weapons in 5th, but bring them forward mostly unchanged. For those that didn't mess with rigging in 4th, armor was limited by the Body of the vehicle/drone it was put on. Vehicles could have Body x2, while drones could get Body x3, all capped at a max of 20 for normal armor, and 10 for concealed or smart armor. And upgrading the armor took up mod slots, which were equal to the Body of the vehicle/drone. So a Steel Lynx (a mid-range combat drone) with its Body of 4 could max out armor at 12. So if you shot at that Lynx, it would get 16 dice to defend, for an average of ~5 hits. Considering that an Ares Alpha (a fairly common assault rifle) did 6P with normal ammo, then if you got net hits on the attack, you were pretty much sure of doing some damage to the drone. They weren't all powerful, but there were a legit threat, on both sides of the table. And tricking out drones with autosofts, weapons, and other modifications could run expensive enough that they most certainly weren't treated as cannon fodder unless it was a desperate situation.

[Top Dog]

Drones aren't really glass cannons though, they're more like glass pea shooters. By themselves, they top out at 10 attack dice (3 pilot + 6 autosoft + 1 smartlink). They have 9 dice max on most other things (sneaking, perception etc).

Jumped in they're better, of course, but that takes a whole character.

Plus, they're not just squishy, they're practically made of paper. They have single-digit defense dice, and once they're hit, they soak with 8 dice, and then they have half the damage track. Your average opponent can take one down with ease in a single shot. Which wouldn't even be that big a deal, except they're ridiculously expensive to repair on top of it all.

[N.B: This was typed before Mirkon's response, and is a resonse to the general topic, not to any specific post]

[Kincaid]

Or pea sprayers.  For combat, the most effective thing I've used them for (as a non-rigger) is to blanket an area with suppressive fire.  6+4d6 is a pretty solid initiative and it usually leads to NPCs taking a nasty penalty to their Defense Tests for a pass or two.

[Top Dog]

Well, yes, they can still help out quite a bit. But they're not exactly combat monsters, is my point.

[Sabato Kuroi]

If you think that simply having a bunch of heavily armored combat drones eliminates the need for actual combatants, then either you've never dealt with a halfway competent GM, or you're fragging crazy.

As with anything in Shadowrun, there are strengths and weaknesses to using drones. The biggest weakness of drones is that there is a whole archetype out there that focuses precisely on taking technological toys away from people and making them their own. They're called Hackers. Any group running around with only combat drones as their attack force is asking to have a hacker turn the drones on them and rip them to shreds. Or for a mage to drop a Powerbolt or six on them. Direct physical combat spells are MURDER on drones, with their relatively light Body scores.

The drones in 4th edition (especially those designed for combat) were hardy enough to not fall apart the first time someone looked at them wrong, but certainly never replaced the need for meat body combatants in any game I played in or witnessed. Indeed, it is my profound hope that they don't butcher the customization options for drones and vehicles like they did with weapons in 5th, but bring them forward mostly unchanged. For those that didn't mess with rigging in 4th, armor was limited by the Body of the vehicle/drone it was put on. Vehicles could have Body x2, while drones could get Body x3, all capped at a max of 20 for normal armor, and 10 for concealed or smart armor. And upgrading the armor took up mod slots, which were equal to the Body of the vehicle/drone. So a Steel Lynx (a mid-range combat drone) with its Body of 4 could max out armor at 12. So if you shot at that Lynx, it would get 16 dice to defend, for an average of ~5 hits. Considering that an Ares Alpha (a fairly common assault rifle) did 6P with normal ammo, then if you got net hits on the attack, you were pretty much sure of doing some damage to the drone. They weren't all powerful, but there were a legit threat, on both sides of the table. And tricking out drones with autosofts, weapons, and other modifications could run expensive enough that they most certainly weren't treated as cannon fodder unless it was a desperate situation.

You assume much

Hackers are a decent threat  but  a good rigger with  3 bumblebees with the speed of rotordrones is pretty much OP.He is a serious threwt to any mage  because he is going to move first, attack from a great distance, attack and then easily move  out of the mage's line of sight, use two of them for supressive fire and jump in the 3rd for doing serious damage etc.A single spell would never destroy  3 drones unkess the rigger is so bad at his job that he's keeping 3 drones with such great mobility in a tight formation


As for the hacker getting 3 marks , well it takes some time to put 3 makrs against a decently geared rigger.
Anyway, there is a counter to everything but a class with a small army of  heavily armored, heavily armed (with a great recoil compensation rating) fast flying drones is pretty much OP in my book.

What I'm trying ti say is Drones are not gimped if they are played correctly.They can also be used in combat maneuvers.They need some more choices but then again, all classes need their sourcebooks.


Never said they are combat monsters.What I said was they shouldn't be turned into combat monsters.

[Herr Brackhaus]

You assume much as well, Sabato Kuroi.

The biggest assumption you make is that a rigger gets to use the range advantage against his enemies. How many Shadowruns take place inside (corporate) facilities, underground, or in otherwise enclosed spaces?

A hacker doesn't need to get 3 marks on every drone; marks on the controlling persona allows the hacker to spoof commands.

As you say, there is indeed a counter to everything. And I don't think anyone is arguing for a straight up-armored version of current drones as a solution. I certainly am not. But I would like to see drones, especially combat models like the Steel Lynx, be able to survive more than a few rounds from a heavy pistol.

[Zar]

You shouldn't be able to take them down with a pistol.  Plus they are way too expensive to repair to be viable to be a PC drone rigger.

[Kincaid]

You shouldn't be able to take them down with a pistol.  Plus they are way too expensive to repair to be viable to be a PC drone rigger.

Is 100 nuyen/box on a roto-drone that prohibitive?