[Herr Brackhaus]

The details of that is left up to Gamemasters, if I remember correctly.

[SMDVogrin]

Is it explained how that got there? I mean, I'm pretty sure the 4th world didn't have space flight.

A Dragon from Mars?  Portals (and possibly a rowboat): http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20030825

[Sithlis]

Would a dragons head explode or whatever when it leaves the mana/Gaia sphere seeing as they are duel natured?  Sorry the question just popped into my head.

[psycho835]

Suppossedly, the Tunguska Event was just Harlequin trying to catapult a rock into space with a spell. He was probably just trolling, but still, someone COULD HAVE used a mass driver-like spell to send a dragon into space and kill it by "making it's head explode or something". Perhaps a corrupted GD? Assuming you could take the drain, this actually sounds like a good idea.

[DeathStrobe]

My personal fan theory is that dragons come from Mars. Mars gets invaded by Horrors, and leave through the meta planes to Earth, which is why the numbering starts kind of weirdly on the down cycles. The First World happens some 20,000 years ago, and is called the First World, not because its the first mana cycle, but because its the first cycle with dragons on Earth. A few dragons stay behind on Mars, cast a mass entropy spell and kill all life on Mars and destroying Mars's mansphere, and thus banishing the Horrors for a time.

[Rosa]

As to the location that Chernobyl corresponds to in the 4th World. what i have found out by researching that very question myself is that the general consensus by those people WHO have tried to match Barsaive locations with real World locations is that it corresponds to Wyrmwood/Bloodwood.

It seems that FASA based this on an erroneous translation of the name "Chernobyl" into "Wormwood", this translation is thought to originate from an article in New York Times from 1986. The name Chernobyl actually translates to "mugwort" which is a kind of Black grass.

[Bruce]

Why is everyone so certain that the Horrors aren't due to arrive for another millenia or so?

There are already indications that the timetable for magic has moved up (can't recall the reference, but the Dragons were surprised at the 'early' appearance of Shedim and Insect Spirits).

If magic depends partially on the number of people alive 'fueling' the manasphere, then there are far more people (and more Awakened) in the Sixth World than were in the 4th.  This might possibly speed up the arrival of certain entities...

[Reaver]

There have been steps taken to block the horrors, not the least of which is the Big D himself.

Then there is the little legal fact that the two properties are split, and owned by two seperate corporate entities, thus stopping them from EVER appearing in ANY future SR product until that legal matter is dealt with.

[Bruce]

That certainly prevents Catalyst from using said entities, I agree.  But that's a meta-game answer, and not applicable to every campaign.  Despite the Big D, shedim became a part of the Sixth World, and pushing back the arrival of other entities by a few centuries would be highly beneficial, but still could allow them to arrive sooner than anticipated.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Because of the nature of natural cycles.  Mankind can, locally, prevent tides from coming further inland with dikes, or harness them with wave-generators, or even enhance them if they want - but they cannot change the fact that the moon and the sun and the Earth's rotation combine to create tides.  This is, comparatively, a 'shallow natural cycle'; it has power, but it happens in a 12-hour occurance, with variations throughout a 28-day lunar cycle.

Move to something deeper: the seasons.  Mankind can (has!) altered to an extent the seasons - we've increased the general heat level of the planet, resulting in generally hotter summers and generally warmer winters.  But mankind cannot even come close to altering the fact of them; that is generated by a 365.24-day-long cycle, the Earth orbiting the sun.

Move further on - imagine a cycle that takes over 10,000 years to complete.  Humanity can, in certain locations, and with an immense amount of effort, heighten or dampen the effect of the mana cycle.  Shedim 'took advantage of' one of those incidents - a deep astral rift and the mana spike of Halley's Comet (a 76-year cycle that we COULD affect, due to its being a comparatively small item to affect.)  If the two hadn't been combined, the shedim wouldn't've arrived for at least decades, and probably centuries.  The other nasties are working on a similar restriction - they can only be summoned at certain strengths/flavors of mana (mana spikes, such as that of the Great Ghost Dance, or the Corrupted Locus in Aztlan), and being able to naturally cross is something that requires even higher levels.  Those levels are not due to be reached for an estimated two thousand or more years, because of the very nature of that massive cycle.

If you want to use them, by all means go ahead; it would radically change the nature of your game, because they ARE arriving centuries before they should, and metahumanity is Simply Not Ready For Dealing With Them.  The mystic technology (so to speak) of the kaer is yet to be rediscovered; it is clearly something more than 'just a big ward'.  IMO, the arrival of the Horrors would be something to make insect spirits, CFD, toxics, Fear the Dark, the HMHVV and VITAS plagues, and both the Crashes all rolled together seem like a happy-go-lucky Christmas party.  So use them if you want - but remember/realize that you're dropping the worst of the worst on a world that isn't ready for it, and simply can't be ready for it for another few decades, which means the Horrors ... win.

[Bruce]

I agree that having the Horrors, etc. actually arrive would change the world and the nature of the game beyond all recognition.  I'm not so sure that the cycle of magic is truly immune to tampering, acceleration, delay, etc. as magic by its nature interacts with the human world, something that truly natural phenomena don't.  (cf.  a volcanic eruption will occur and act according to natural forces whether or not any human is present; but some magical phenomena can't happen without (meta)human presence.)

I'm using the 'the cycle has changed' theme to convey an impending doom not 2 millenia from 2076 (which most sentients aren't going to get worked up about; plenty of time to get ready) to some unknown time; not tomorrow, not even in a couple a centuries, but long before the major players are prepared for it.  I have a particular GM character who is aware of this, and is taking action to get ready much sooner.  (And if a few of his enemies get caught by surprise by all of this, oh well...)  Although he's not directly interacting with the PCs (yet), some of his activities have created runs for them, and they're slowly coming to his attention as possible assets or obstacles.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

On the contrary - go out into a manastorm in the Outback, and you'll discover just how quickly several different magical phenomena that 'can't happen without (meta)human presence' occur.  But by the theme of SR, no - while some Horrors and quasi-Horrors are able to come across (Ysgraithe, due to the Horror Mark still upon Aina Dupree; those few summoned by Darke; a few minor ones due to mana spikes at the Great Ghost Dance location; Aina's work at Crater Lake; possibly the Corrupted Locus in Aztlan; shedim from the DC Rift; etc.), the massive amount of mana required to enable their 'easy' crossing (even the 'easy' crossing of the Invae) is, by standard SR, well into the future.  Humanity can adjust and control minor natural phenomenon - lava flows in Iceland, for example - and magic is one of them.  But magic would exist, increase/decrease, and spontaneously manifest curiousities (spontaneous spells, spirit manifestations, etc.) with no metahuman interaction no matter what.

That's part of SR canon, however, and however much it isn't likely to change, you can, after all, do what you want in your home game.  (You can also disagree all you want, but it isn't likely to change into HorrorRun any time soon.)  I do wish you luck.  I would be interested to know, however, how this 'particular GM character' is aware of these things ... though of course he's probably Brightlight, and deserves to be melted down into his component atoms.  (Never liked the character; Sargent/Gascoigne creation, which should speak for itself.)

[Bruce]

Not a canon character, and he's been around since the 2nd World and been keeping track of the relationship between the number of Awakened sentients active/alive and how quickly the amount of mana increases in each age.  The dragons have been doing the same, but are underestimating the effects by a few centuries or so (cf. the comment that the dragons were surprised, not by the appearance of Insect Spirits, but that they manifested 'early'.  The dragons dismiss this as an anomaly.)

Nor do I want 'Horror-Run', since that would be a very different game; apocalyptic, not dystopian.  Which is why the coming changes are far enough in the future that the PCs (well, most of them) would be long gone through natural causes anyway.

It's just unfortunate (but not anyone's fault) that the two FASA lines got separated and there can't be any further canon/official material re the links between ED and SR.

[Rosa]

If you want some horror flavor in your games without actually subjecting the World to something that shouldn't happen for at least another millenia and a half ( even with increased mana levels ), i would suggest either A) meta-planar experiences or B) use shadow spirits from Street Grimoire, they do have very much a "horror light" flavor. As far as i recall in Earthdawn, the wraiths are actually mentioned as forerunners of the horrors.

[Bruce]

I have used a few, along with toxic shamans and spirits, in between 'normal' runs.  But since the last major adventure was the team doing a data steal in Chicago, I'm going light on the Insect Spirits for a while, for my own safety...