[ShadowcatX]

The thing about talking to the players and making them defend their actions is that you're going to put them on the defensive. That's something noone likes. Beyond that it may not be plesent for the op either. Better to avoid that situation altogether by just asking what they didn't like and using it to learn and grow. Its not like we are talking about a single, problem player here, this was over half of the players.

[All4BigGuns]

I'm thinking that this might be a better run for a team of primarily combatant characters. With appropriate set-up, the ones going into general population to pose as prisoners could be placed in special cells--adjacent to the target's cell--that have a hidden compartment (that can be sealed up by a bribed maintenance man afterward--probably the same guy that puts them in in the first place) that contains equipment the runners bring in. When the fecal matter hits the oscillating blades, the runners can then spring into action with their gear. There also would need to be a special escape route built into one of those cells (set up with charges to collapse the tunnel to prevent additional escapes).

Rigger, Decker and Mage/Shaman characters really should be almost automatically placed as the "guard posing runners" while the Sams and Physical Adepts are better suited for the "prisoner posers" than the others.

All things considered, the pay for this job should also have been at least 50,000 nuyen per runner.

[8-bit]

I think it might have worked if, like others have said, the Johnson didn't set them on one specific plan. If he laid out the premise, and then said something like, "I can get a few of you in as guards, but the rest of you will have to pose as other prisoners. I'm open to other suggestions." That would have given the runners some control over the run. The run, as it was, was completely in the hands of fate (aka, the GM).

Also, the reward should most certainly have been much higher. Even in a medium/minimum security prison, being caught means being branded with a Criminal SIN and anywhere between 6 months and several years of imprisonment. Oh, and if you're full of 'ware, it all gets painfully pulled out of you (and there goes all your nuyen investment). If you're magical, you get branded as "dangerous" and moved to a much higher security facility, with a longer time in prison. They won't get to use any of their powers, either being put into mystical cuffs/mystical jackets or just sat right on top of a mana void. Neither of which is a very pleasant (in fact, it's rather tortuous) experience.

So, yeah; the offer should have come in at about 30k up front, with probably another 30-40k after the objective is secured. Leaving some room for negotiation, too.

[NovaHot1]

Some thoughts.

Higher reward probably is justified.

Docking street cred and giving notoriety is absolutely justified. I'm with Sterling on this one. The Shaman being too pretty to go to prison is too pretty to be a Shadowrunner. It's guaranteed that he will get into combat at some point and mess up his pretty face.

If they give good reasons for not wanting to go in, then let it be a learning experience and move on. If they give ridiculous in character reasons, then they get to deal with in character consequences. RPGs are supposed to be fun, absolutely. But this isn't like the lame soccer games where all the kids get trophies for participating. Part of the fun of the game is the tension. Things go wrong. People get hurt. Characters die. It should always be confined to and motivated by in character circumstances, but there have to be consequences for those in character actions. If the players don't understand that and feel like the in character consequences are out of character punishment, either the GM is being too heavy handed with the consequences, or more likely in my experience, the players need to gain a bit of perspective.

Aside from the reward, did the players try to come up with an alternate run strategy or did they just bow out? I think that's important as well.

[firebug]

Docking street cred and giving notoriety is absolutely justified. I'm with Sterling on this one. The Shaman being too pretty to go to prison is too pretty to be a Shadowrunner. It's guaranteed that he will get into combat at some point and mess up his pretty face.

Don't ever play a Face.  Also I'd like to point out that you do know "too pretty to go to prison" doesn't literally mean "I am too attractive and therefore allergic to jail-type environments".  It's the equivalent of saying "My talents are wasted being reduced to a random prisoner" in this case and "I would like to not have to fight off rapists for a week".  Which, they would be (in both cases).  See the many others who've suggested the Shaman be a guard instead.

Now, it is on the player if he didn't even try to discuss switching spots with somebody, I'll admit.  Though I get the impression they players may have felt there was no negotiation in the plan.  Regardless, not at least going "Can we talk about this plan?" is a bad point, but seriously, enough with the notoriety.  The guy turned down a job.  Run Faster says things that give notoriety are hacking a Johnson's commlink or using Manipulation magic.  Not turning down a job.

[ShadowcatX]

I think it might have worked if, like others have said, the Johnson didn't set them on one specific plan.

I agree with this. I think the idea of having to protect someone in prison is an awesome and unique idea for a shadowrun. I can easily see it working with half or more of the crew never setting foot on the prison grounds. An influence spell here, a bit of bribery there, sprinkle in some extortion and some hacking, and top it off with a couple cartons of real cigarettes smuggled through the proper channels, and viola, cake run.

[blinkdog]

Thanks for the feedback everybody (esp Sterling), it helped a lot.

Unfortunately it's hard to reply to any specific post, because I can't give out many details.
The next session is in ~2 weeks and the run continues.
The three runners did join the mission (at half the original pay rate), because the mission moved outside the prison.

I will send a link to the run after my players have finished it, if anybody is interested.

[NovaHot1]

Docking street cred and giving notoriety is absolutely justified. I'm with Sterling on this one. The Shaman being too pretty to go to prison is too pretty to be a Shadowrunner. It's guaranteed that he will get into combat at some point and mess up his pretty face.

Don't ever play a Face.  Also I'd like to point out that you do know "too pretty to go to prison" doesn't literally mean "I am too attractive and therefore allergic to jail-type environments".  It's the equivalent of saying "My talents are wasted being reduced to a random prisoner" in this case and "I would like to not have to fight off rapists for a week".  Which, they would be (in both cases).  See the many others who've suggested the Shaman be a guard instead.

Now, it is on the player if he didn't even try to discuss switching spots with somebody, I'll admit.  Though I get the impression they players may have felt there was no negotiation in the plan.  Regardless, not at least going "Can we talk about this plan?" is a bad point, but seriously, enough with the notoriety.  The guy turned down a job.  Run Faster says things that give notoriety are hacking a Johnson's commlink or using Manipulation magic.  Not turning down a job.

Well, first, Oz isn't an accurate portrayal of the prison system. The most attractive inmates don't necessarily live a life of constant fear of prison rapists. Secondly, the core rule book (pg 368, if you'd like to verify) says that you give notoriety for both refusing to finish a run or for insulting or pissing off a Johnson, both of which likely happened in this example. As always, that's a GM's call and your style could be way different than mine and that's completely understandable. For me, I'd throw on the notoriety, but my games have a very strong social element to them in the way the world reacts to the PCs.

[Top Dog]

Secondly, the core rule book (pg 368, if you'd like to verify) says that you give notoriety for both refusing to finish a run or for insulting or pissing off a Johnson, both of which likely happened in this example.

Refusing to finish a run. Once an agreement is struck, breaking that has serious consequences for your rep, as it should. But here, a bargain was never struck. Runners have every right not to accept a run they don't want to do - if not, why bother with a meet at all? Just send someone the mission details if there's no reasonable way to say no.

Refusing a run also isn't an insult. The Johnson might feel insulted, but if he's that easily hurt it's him that has a problem.

Of course, they should talk out with their fixer what happened. If they were unreasonable, the fixer might call on them less later. If they do this a lot, the same; and then, some notoriety might appear ("Oh those guys are useless, they only accept milk runs"). But for one refusal? Status quo should be the default.

[ZeldaBravo]

Docking street cred and giving notoriety is absolutely justified. I'm with Sterling on this one. The Shaman being too pretty to go to prison is too pretty to be a Shadowrunner. It's guaranteed that he will get into combat at some point and mess up his pretty face.

Don't ever play a Face.  Also I'd like to point out that you do know "too pretty to go to prison" doesn't literally mean "I am too attractive and therefore allergic to jail-type environments".  It's the equivalent of saying "My talents are wasted being reduced to a random prisoner" in this case and "I would like to not have to fight off rapists for a week".  Which, they would be (in both cases).  See the many others who've suggested the Shaman be a guard instead.

Now, it is on the player if he didn't even try to discuss switching spots with somebody, I'll admit.  Though I get the impression they players may have felt there was no negotiation in the plan.  Regardless, not at least going "Can we talk about this plan?" is a bad point, but seriously, enough with the notoriety.  The guy turned down a job.  Run Faster says things that give notoriety are hacking a Johnson's commlink or using Manipulation magic.  Not turning down a job.

Well, first, Oz isn't an accurate portrayal of the prison system. The most attractive inmates don't necessarily live a life of constant fear of prison rapists. Secondly, the core rule book (pg 368, if you'd like to verify) says that you give notoriety for both refusing to finish a run or for insulting or pissing off a Johnson, both of which likely happened in this example. As always, that's a GM's call and your style could be way different than mine and that's completely understandable. For me, I'd throw on the notoriety, but my games have a very strong social element to them in the way the world reacts to the PCs.

1. The characters may think otherwise about the prison system.
2. You can't refuse to finish the run if you do not agree to run in the first place.
3. "No" is not an insult.

[ksyr]

Shadowrunners are freelancers and the entire point of being a freelancer is that you get to decide which jobs to do and not to do. If you are in the army or the police and you refuse an order then it should affect your reputation, but not if you are a freelancer. I have worked as a freelancer/consultant in real life(not shadowrunning ) and I have said no to potential clients several times. If the fixer in this case has a problem then maybe he needs to be more professional.

Also, someone not wanting to go to prison because they are too pretty is a good reason in my opinion. Even if prisons are not the rapey hellholes they are reputed to be the shaman is free to belive in what he has read on the matrix or watched in movies. It doesn't matter what is real, what matters is what the character belives or in this case fears, because fears are not always rational.

[NovaHot1]

Docking street cred and giving notoriety is absolutely justified. I'm with Sterling on this one. The Shaman being too pretty to go to prison is too pretty to be a Shadowrunner. It's guaranteed that he will get into combat at some point and mess up his pretty face.

Don't ever play a Face.  Also I'd like to point out that you do know "too pretty to go to prison" doesn't literally mean "I am too attractive and therefore allergic to jail-type environments".  It's the equivalent of saying "My talents are wasted being reduced to a random prisoner" in this case and "I would like to not have to fight off rapists for a week".  Which, they would be (in both cases).  See the many others who've suggested the Shaman be a guard instead.

Now, it is on the player if he didn't even try to discuss switching spots with somebody, I'll admit.  Though I get the impression they players may have felt there was no negotiation in the plan.  Regardless, not at least going "Can we talk about this plan?" is a bad point, but seriously, enough with the notoriety.  The guy turned down a job.  Run Faster says things that give notoriety are hacking a Johnson's commlink or using Manipulation magic.  Not turning down a job.

Well, first, Oz isn't an accurate portrayal of the prison system. The most attractive inmates don't necessarily live a life of constant fear of prison rapists. Secondly, the core rule book (pg 368, if you'd like to verify) says that you give notoriety for both refusing to finish a run or for insulting or pissing off a Johnson, both of which likely happened in this example. As always, that's a GM's call and your style could be way different than mine and that's completely understandable. For me, I'd throw on the notoriety, but my games have a very strong social element to them in the way the world reacts to the PCs.

1. The characters may think otherwise about the prison system.
2. You can't refuse to finish the run if you do not agree to run in the first place.
3. "No" is not an insult.

cqqsmsth
1) 40% of the team accepting a job and the rest not accepting because "I'm too pretty" and "my cyberware will get hurt" (even though the GM tells you specifically that no it won't) is both unprofessional and very likely comes off insulting to the Johnson.
2) Could also be construed as not finishing a job. By any standard, either the whe team should accept the job or the whole team should turn it down.
3) Unless the characters have Logic 1, they aren't gonna think it's an episode of Oz, either.

[Top Dog]

1. The characters may think otherwise about the prison system.
2. You can't refuse to finish the run if you do not agree to run in the first place.
3. "No" is not an insult.

cqqsmsth
1) 40% of the team accepting a job and the rest not accepting because "I'm too pretty" and "my cyberware will get hurt" (even though the GM tells you specifically that no it won't) is both unprofessional and very likely comes off insulting to the Johnson.
2) Could also be construed as not finishing a job. By any standard, either the whe team should accept the job or the whole team should turn it down.
3) Unless the characters have Logic 1, they aren't gonna think it's an episode of Oz, either.

1: I'm sure the players phrased it more maturely then that, and others have already detailed why those concerns are at least partially justified. Plus, it's a job offer. For a dangerous job. That puts you in prison. Saying "yes" while you're uncomfortable with it and fear for your life and property is the unprofessional thing to do.
2: That's silly semantics. Yes, technically if you never accept a job you're not finishing it either. But it's not like people get a few thousand notoriety a day for all of the jobs they're not finishing. Fact is, notoriety is ment to be given when you break your agreements. You can't break an agreement you never made in the first place.
2b: Most runners aren't teams. In the context of the game, they usually are, because you play with the same people. And the Johnson might want this specific group because he knows they can work together. But there's no reason they can't go on and find some different runners if the first choices bow out (even partially). I wouldn't be too happy if I was forced to do a job because 4 people I work with once a month decide I have to.
(Of course, game-practical reasons make this harder in practice, but it still applies in the narrative - which is what we're talking about).
3: Oz may be an exaggeration, but being uncomfortable around prisons - even if it's influenced by popular media - is quite rational. Not wanting to be locked up in prison for an extended time in what I'm assuming is an illegal mission unsanctioned and unknown by the administration isn't unreasonable. If they think they pay is worth it - swell. They didn't.

The runners got a job offer. It was a highly dangerous mission that they didn't feel they were suited for. They passed. The only reason this would ever be an issue is because it happened between a group of players of a game which now had to sit in the sideline - in-universe, not a single blink would have been made.

[Sterling]

Thanks for the feedback everybody (esp Sterling), it helped a lot.

Unfortunately it's hard to reply to any specific post, because I can't give out many details.
The next session is in ~2 weeks and the run continues.
The three runners did join the mission (at half the original pay rate), because the mission moved outside the prison.

I will send a link to the run after my players have finished it, if anybody is interested.

I'm glad that we managed to provide some help, even if we did manage to start bickering.  I for one would love a link to the run, as I said the basic concept is a good one and I'd be interested to see how the players actually responded, especially once the three others joined in.

[NovaHot1]

3: Oz may be an exaggeration, but being uncomfortable around prisons - even if it's influenced by popular media - is quite rational. Not wanting to be locked up in prison for an extended time in what I'm assuming is an illegal mission unsanctioned and unknown by the administration isn't unreasonable. If they think they pay is worth it - swell. They didn't.

Valid point. Not thinking the pay is worth is wouldn't be so bad to me as the otherwise stated reason. At least that's more in line with in character reasoning, to me.