[Marcus]

Ok. So laying aside variant games (The All Decker game, the Astral exploration team, the Doc Wagon crew etc). For Generic Shadowruny Hi-jinks I argue the following as the base line. A Face. Someone gotta make the get paid roll and ensure your team isn't shut down by a grump security guard with a clip board. A Magic User, you need Counterspelling over watch, Astral issues meaning spirits and the like, a Combat specialist Street Sam/Adept/Gun Nut/tanks etc, someones gotta keep the group from getting overrun by a group of go gangers, and get shot), and lastly a Decker, gotta keep the matrix on lock.

So I vote 4 necessary roles. There are plenty of variants in there, you could basically combine an two of the roles into one character with some effort and some what lower level of effectiveness. (Mage/Face, Decker/Sam etc).

After that things are much more open to discussion, Riggers are interesting, they can be something of a wild card, just depending on how they are built, one rigger could be an amazing wheel man where another is walking army of drones, still another can be a scout with micro drones running a muck. They could potentially fill the combat role, if built correctly. 

A jack of all trades can be a useful character.

A B&E specialist 

A Sniper or heavy weapon specialist Possibly.

An investigator

[Deadborder]

What roles/specialties do you need for your team?

Whatever the players want to play and will have fun playing. There is nothing less fun then a player being forced into a role because nobody else wants to play it. I've been there. It's awful.

[Senko]

Ok. So laying aside variant games (The All Decker game, the Astral exploration team, the Doc Wagon crew etc). For Generic Shadowruny Hi-jinks I argue the following as the base line. A Face. Someone gotta make the get paid roll and ensure your team isn't shut down by a grump security guard with a clip board. A Magic User, you need Counterspelling over watch, Astral issues meaning spirits and the like, a Combat specialist Street Sam/Adept/Gun Nut/tanks etc, someones gotta keep the group from getting overrun by a group of go gangers, and get shot), and lastly a Decker, gotta keep the matrix on lock.

So I vote 4 necessary roles. There are plenty of variants in there, you could basically combine an two of the roles into one character with some effort and some what lower level of effectiveness. (Mage/Face, Decker/Sam etc).

After that things are much more open to discussion, Riggers are interesting, they can be something of a wild card, just depending on how they are built, one rigger could be an amazing wheel man where another is walking army of drones, still another can be a scout with micro drones running a muck. They could potentially fill the combat role, if built correctly. 

A jack of all trades can be a useful character.

A B&E specialist 

A Sniper or heavy weapon specialist Possibly.

An investigator

What does a starting jack of all trades character look like?

[ScytheKnight]

Probably something along the lines of my PBP character Yako... bit of magic, combining combat and distractions, bit of face ability, bit of combat, can ride a bike (swap bike specialization for wheeled if you want more of a wheelman) and can speak multiple languages.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApQdSdtmJq9KdDZKSzFRRGRJQThKbzIwWGFVMlltNXc&usp=drive_web#gid=7

Is it an optimised character? No, but so long as you don't try throwing her headfirst into a wall of HTR she should do alright.

[Sabato Kuroi]

I think there are 6 things every group must be able to  do, one way or another

1.Counter physical threats
2.Counter matrix threats
3.Counter astral threats
4.B&E
5.Socialising
6.Drive


I must say I think riggers are extremely useful for surveillance, backup, getaways.The rigger in my table has 2 rotordrones and one bumblebee and they greatly support the firing capabilites of the team.Her Roadmaster is like a moving armored HQ for the group.


The group I GM for consists of

1.Human Decker/Face
2.Troll Physad who can astrally perceive and tears spirits apart with Spirit Claws
3.Elf Rigger(drones+vehicles)/Face
4.Human assassin/infiltrator Physad who can astrally perceive

So Matrix + Spirit threats are pretty much covered.I do feel however that a spellcaster would be extremely useful

They sometimes hire NPCs if the situation demands a specialist (street sam, mysad etc)

[Hobbes]

What roles/specialties do you need for your team?

Whatever the players want to play and will have fun playing. There is nothing less fun then a player being forced into a role because nobody else wants to play it. I've been there. It's awful.

Several others have said similar things.  So not specifically directed at you. 

You've gotta meet the GM part way.  If my five players all showed up with chromed up killing machines (and/or Troll melee Adepts) that would trigger a discussion.  Now if the Combat Monsters each had a decent secondary, I'd be able to work with that.  Its not difficult to chat with the other players and sort out someone to grab a way to deal with Astral or Spirits.  One character with Astral Perception and a Magical attack.  Etiquette and Intimidation are not difficult skills to get one charter to 10ish on.  B&E skills are downright trivial for most Combat focused characters to grab.  Any high Logic character can pick up a technical skill.  Someone can throw a few karma at a Decker Contact.  ect, ect.

Its not like Shadowrun is old school D&D where the last person to show up has to play the Cleric that takes all cure light wounds spells and a mace.  As a team its not a major investment of resources or a huge cave in to playstyle or roleplaying to pick up one secondary skill, ability, or resource, to cover a group weakness to a common challenge. 

Its not a character concept break for the Ork Street Sam to be scary or the Elf Physical Adept to be able to pick locks, or somebody knows a Decker or owns a used car.    And as a GM its painful to look at a stack of modules from the last 20 years and not be able to use any of them without heavy handwaiving. 

[Triskavanski]

One Niceity to me, would be a Technomancer. Right now they're too karama starved to be too much use as a decker or rigger. However, making them after you've got a decker, the two could work together very well.

[Tarislar]

Tarislar - in the case of your point 1B, is perception good enough or is projection the way to go?

Projection is nice for sure.  That said, Our group initially got along just fine on Perception, a low Assensing dice pool,  & Spirits from a Mystic Adept.
When a full mage joined the group w/ a high assensing skill it was gravy.  The only time I'd be worried is if the only Perception you were getting was from someone that also couldn't summon Spirits.  Like a PhysAdpt.  You'll get by, but the lack of ranged astral recon just hurts a little.

the group i am in is just finishing up the second of the artifacts series, just leaving denver;  the group is a Mystic Adept that focuses on spellcasting, a rigger who is discovering the hard way how current 5E drones are fragile.  one player missed the first session (the chicaggo leg) and didn't realize how quickly we would be leaving denver, is bringing in a "merc" so I am guessing a primary combatant.  My current character is a Nocturna Adept  that is somewhat shooty and some what facey... started building him just after seeing Kingsman LOL. 

so Based on what I have read, I am guessing the advice for if my current character dies or I replace him/get a do over would be : Strongly consider a Decker/technomancer first, the something facey with a combat secondary?

If the MA can summon as well I'd say your fine on the Astral part.
Riggers IMHO so far are kinda gimped.  I really only have 1 solid set up for them at this time.  (Transport Vehicle, Rotodrones w/ LONG ranged guns) & FlySpys for Recon.)   A Non-Rigger can easily provide the Transport & Flyspy portions w/ solid gear choices so that leaves them with the Roto-Swarm, 2+ minimum, shooting from range so they don't get tagged back easily.
Combat Merc should be fine, the key is being Dodgy/Tanky, IMHO, to draw fire.
Rigger might be able to take over some Decking type options if he has the right skills set up & can afford a Deck.

Technomancers are, IMHO, better off being the 2nd "matrix" type person. 
Mostly because they are really hard to also make into Shooty types too.
Where as a Decker can depend on some Cyber to pump up the combat options.

[Whiskeyjack]

Tarislar - in the case of your point 1B, is perception good enough or is projection the way to go?

Projection is nice but not necessary.

Generally you want at least 1 person who can perceive and hit dematerialized spirits, whether with spells or a weapon focus.

Spirits are such a huge force multiplier that having someone in the group who can summon and bind can really help (and CHA mages are great for this because high CHA = can have a ton of spirits bound for any situation or for a big alpha strike). Last session, one of my spirits really turned a bad situation into a manageable one by utterly wasting one foe every pass.

Again I don't think anything is purely necessary because your GM shouldn't be that on-rails and should tailor goals to the group rather than insist that someone play a decker instead of what they actually want to play (for example).

As to what is very nice to have (and some of these roles can be combined: decker/B&E is easy as is mage/face as is sam/face or sam/B&E in a lot of cases):

-Face with a great Negotiation pool who doesn't need active spells to do it (powers are OK). Easiest way to get more money on jobs, get money up front, etc. Face should also have a great Con pool and be able to talk the group past a lot of obstacles.
-Big nasty tank with a lot of soak and a big gun to at least draw fire from squishier characters; generally a Sam with high AGI and REA. The high REA makes them a great driver too
-Focused decker
-B&E guy who can break locks and sneak
-Magic character who can perceive astral. Spirits are a big plus. Casting is a big plus. An adept cannot replace a caster; nobody comes close to casters with spot healing. Generally in 5th I think Illusion/Manipulation casters are superior to focusing on combat (sustained debuffs are amazing) but being able to overcast Ball Lightning on a cluster of drones is always nice too.

Optional but useful:
-Rigger, especially for surveillance and driving

[Aethelwulf1972]

okay here is a bit of an exmple:  our group (which ignored my recommendation to go pick up the 4th player's character (who he admited after the game wasn't ready anyway lol)) gets knocked out by 10 go gangers with 2 mages... the mages are in full combat armor.   they are using stun options so we get knocked the [redacted] out. (i think that was scripted) on waking up we have an npc willing to help us so we move on towards the next encounter.  we start encountering mooks that we begin managing to shred (except for the drone rigger who's combat drones all got destroyed earlier on >.<)  everything seems to be going fine untill the Blood spirit showed up.  Only force 6 but it got in some good hits with it's hemorage power. so the 3 of us are still alive and awake (as well as the npc) but I still have significant damage and we still have to face the blood mage involved.

what would then be the recommendations: the MA has no investments into conjuring btw, and I still would like to play an adept, or something with some kind of combat utility. (if the recommendation is something mage like, i could be okay with that but it would definitely be a full mage...

[8-bit]

I'm not even going to go into the conversation that a GM putting (presumably normal level runners who only have 1 mage, maximum) against 2 mages in Full Combat Armor and a Force 6 Blood Spirit and a Blood Mage is absolutely insane and unrealistic. Not even going to go into that. Nope, not going there. Definitely not a good choice by the GM, but whatever.


Anyway.

Here are my recommendations:

Melee Adept with a Weapon Focus.
Street Sam with a lot of 'ware.

You guys need some combat power, it seems like. The adept with a weapon focus can, and will, shred spirits. Street Sam can act as a Tank in a secondary role, and should be good enough (assuming the use of Automatics) to handle reasonable combat encounters. Plus, Ares Alpha w/ APDS Rounds on FA beats Blood Mage who shows his face every time. It's kind of like Rock - Paper - Scissors; but bullets instead of rocks, armor instead of paper, and squishy mages instead of scissors.

[Aethelwulf1972]

does it have to be specifically a melee adept or can it be a combat adept? (thinking blades 6 automatics 5 for combat skills).  Human or Nocturna, or a species wit a natural reaction bonus?

[ShadowcatX]

does it have to be specifically a melee adept or can it be a combat adept? (thinking blades 6 automatics 5 for combat skills).  Human or Nocturna, or a species wit a natural reaction bonus?

If you're not wanting a high strength, consider getting a monofilamemt whip instead of a blade. Just have a decent edge.

[FrowningMirror]

does it have to be specifically a melee adept or can it be a combat adept? (thinking blades 6 automatics 5 for combat skills).  Human or Nocturna, or a species wit a natural reaction bonus?

The purpose of the adept was that he used weapon foci to tank/kill the spirit. It is true that mages can counter other mages. Now that your mage has created his own force 6 spirits, solve the rest of your problems with good old fashioned bullets.

[8-bit]

does it have to be specifically a melee adept or can it be a combat adept? (thinking blades 6 automatics 5 for combat skills).  Human or Nocturna, or a species wit a natural reaction bonus?

The purpose of the adept was that he used weapon foci to tank/kill the spirit. It is true that mages can counter other mages. Now that your mage has created his own force 6 spirits, solve the rest of your problems with good old fashioned bullets.

You must have misread.

They don't have spirits. From what I got, they have one Mystic Adept, and he has no ranks in Conjuring at all. That's why they need a spirit killer. Mages actually aren't that amazing at killing spirits (unless specifically built to do so), but you really only need to slap on a weapon focus to make an adept a good spirit killer.

does it have to be specifically a melee adept or can it be a combat adept? (thinking blades 6 automatics 5 for combat skills).  Human or Nocturna, or a species wit a natural reaction bonus?

It can be a combat adept. Just something that has a high weapon skill for the weapon focus. The point is to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons.

I would go Human, simply because the Edge is really difficult to give up. Nocturna can work, just remember that you're going to want at least 5 Strength, possibly 6. Need to have a decent amount of damage on your weapon focus, after all.