[Aethelwulf1972]

I know I have asked a similar question but not this exact question so here goes (and apologies to those who think I am needlessly repeating myself)

What group roles or Character Specializations (Decking, Rigging, Magic, combat, etc) are Absolutely vital to a group, and Which ones are maybe not necessary but nice to have?  as I have stated before, I am in a group with only 4 pc's to cover the bases so I am trying to figure out what my group has and what it needs...

[Whiskeyjack]

Nothing is required. A good GM will not be an asshole and give you paydata runs when you lack a decker. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't threaten your shortcomings but it does mean that runs can be tailored to give the group a challenge but not insurmountable competency gates because you lack a decker or mage.

Though I will say at the least everyone should have some way to attack enemies in combat whether that's guns, spells or data spike.

I would say a classic party is tank (street sam or adept), decker (augmented or magic), caster who can perceive the astral (magician or MysAd). You can cross-pollinate competency, e.g. a Sam can also be a good wheel man because they will have high REA; a CHA-tradition mage can very easily double as a party face.

[Hobbes]

Matrix and Astral specialists are required.  Social and Combat can be covered by others.  Face adepts and Shamantic traditions can work together to cover social skills and be dangerous in combat.  Matrix specialists (Decker or Technomage) should have some level of combat utility.  If Matrix, Astral, and Social are covered then Combat is next.  The Combat specialists should also be picking up Stealth and other Agility based B&E abilities and gear so the Matrix and Astral specialists don't have to.

 Riggers are pure luxury. 

For a four person group if someone plays a Shamantic Mage (Mystic Adept or Mage, whichever) with a focus on Illusion spells you've got Astral and a fair amount of Social skills covered. (Physical mask + Impersonation = IWIN if you can avoid astral security)  #2 should be your Matrix specialists and they're usually to tight to do much else than grab a single combat skill after they cover Matrix stuff.  Add a Physical Adept that can cover whatever social skills your Shaman doesn't, and a Combat focused Street Samie with some stealth and B&E and you're good to go.  Depending on builds Samie and Phys Adept can swap around secondaries.  I've got an Oni Street Samurai build that does okay with Social stuff, I'm pretty sure there are some very pretty and dangerous elf builds knocking around too.  Lots of flexibility.  If Astral guy is more Manabally than Masky, then your Physical Adept should be a straight up Face character with Combat secondary.

Lots of other combo's of course, but if you're sitting around theorycrafting about building that 'leet runner team, that's a solid start.

[Aethelwulf1972]

and how are the matrix skills and actions in 5E? are they still "order the pizza and put in a dvd" time?  Or have they managed to get streamlined so they are just another set of actions?

[Imveros]

and how are the matrix skills and actions in 5E? are they still "order the pizza and put in a dvd" time?  Or have they managed to get streamlined so they are just another set of actions?

IMO its more like hey lets go watch these funny YouTube videos for a little bit rather than hey lets watch the 5th element

As for your group comp you need a way to deal with matrix threats, magical/astral threats, and a way to deal with physical threats. Since you have a 4th, a dedicated face is always nice to have, and a rigger makes a perfect 5th

[ShadowcatX]

I wouldn't say anything is strictly required, but I would want someone on matrix over watch and some sort of magical character. My choice for a trio would be a face, a mage, and a decker, all with combat secondary.

[Whiskeyjack]

and how are the matrix skills and actions in 5E? are they still "order the pizza and put in a dvd" time?  Or have they managed to get streamlined so they are just another set of actions?

It's not that bad anymore. It's still kind of annoying that it's an often single-player subsystem and everytime else is just waiting around but it's not as bad as it was in 4th.

[ScytheKnight]

It's actually worth noting that hackers make great B&E experts, unless you're dealing with purely mechanical locks, chances are you'll be doing a lot of hardware tests... and most hackers will already have hardware and a toolkit.. toss all the B&E toys into the kit and you're golden. This also means the hacker doesn't need to risk OS just to get a door or gate open.

[ikarinokami]

Assuming I was fixer was putting together a team, I would prioritize this way

Tier 1 necessary. Dedicated combat specialist. why? being good enough is not enough, you lose a fight game over. and you can always try to brute force every mission. in football terms the offensive line.

Tier 2: Not necessary but will have the most effect on whether or not you complete the mission.  Mages, utility. these guys decide whether or not you win missions with things ( mind probe, control thoughts, detect enemies, detect life, improved invisibility, spirits, fix, heal, control (element), physical mask, trid phantasm, turn to go, slow vehicle, etc - star quarterback

Tier 3: a big impact on winning mission but not as large as the mages.  Decker.  matrix security, information gathering, bypassing electronic and matrix security -  solid running game

Tier 4. these guys are nice, but limited, benefit greatly from assistance of other tiers, or not as effective as other tier. Faces - information gathering, equipment procurement: B&E

Tier 5. weak sauce- riggers- not enough options until the rigger book.  drones are too delicate.


 

[8-bit]

I echo Whiskeyjack on that nothing is necessary. The GM should tailor the runs to the characters.

You have a 3-4 man Rigger group? Don't send them on a run that requires magic users. Don't have a decker? Don't send them on paydata runs. Totally send them on runs with enemy decks; force them to run wireless off to avoid detection. That's a simpler way to penalize it.

I'm currently in a game where we are vampire hunters: one Street Sam, 1 Mage, and 1 Combat Adept. The GM has kindly played a Decker/Rigger hybrid to drive us around and provide (minimal) surveillance.

Here's my list of things that are least necessary to most necessary in normal situations. It should be noted that there are exceptions to every rule.

Rigger - If players have their own car(s) to drive around with, or the GM NPCs one. You lose some surveillance and combat capabilities.
Decker - Explained, as above. It's actually very common for GMs to NPC these guys, as all that irritating matrix tests can be done in the background by the GM, instead of taking time between a player and the GM.
Tank - It's nice to have one, but you don't absolutely need a damage soaker.
Street Sam/Combat Adept - Especially if you have a Rigger, you don't absolutely need one. While these guys are great for taking people out, you can easily substitute with BF/FA guns from lesser specialized people.
Face - I would rarely leave these guys out, simply because negotiating is a huge part of shadowrunning. They are also great for their network of contacts (usually) and their ability to talk past some encounters.

So many people can fill the role of B&E experts, so they aren't included above.

The standard "group" of 4 people is this:

Street Sam/Combat Adept
Decker/Technomancer
Face
Mage

Each extra person for the "standard" group is this:

Rigger
Tank
Street Sam/Combat Adept/Mage

The "standard" group doesn't really exist. It's something that you can aim for, but the main point of the game is to have fun. Want to play something that doesn't fit the standard setup? You don't have to! It's really easy to fill most roles; some are specialized (such as deckers or mages that can't really be replaced), but you need to work that out with your GM. If you don't have Matrix support, your GM should note that. Can't deal with a ton of enemy mages or spirits? The GM should be using them in moderation then, instead of sending them constantly.

[ScytheKnight]

Just as a note, the game I'm running has 6 players... none of them Riggers (although one of the two Street Sams is also a wheelman) and of the three magic users, (a mage, a Phys Adept and a Myst Adept) only the Mage can astrally perceive or project.

[Tarislar]

I know I have asked a similar question but not this exact question so here goes (and apologies to those who think I am needlessly repeating myself)

What group roles or Character Specializations (Decking, Rigging, Magic, combat, etc) are Absolutely vital to a group, and Which ones are maybe not necessary but nice to have?  as I have stated before, I am in a group with only 4 pc's to cover the bases so I am trying to figure out what my group has and what it needs... 

I think there are 2 things to consider in Shadowrun when it comes to Group Makeup and Character ability.

A.  2-5 Certain special skill sets / job function.  2 are very important while 3 are moderately important.  Make sure you can do 1+ of them.
B.  3 Key "times/goals/phases" for any given scenario that everyone should be able to contribute to.


As for those special skills/jobs.

1A.  Someone must be able to interact well with the Matrix.   (Must have)
  A Decker/Technomancer is almost a mandatory thing for any group.  Fact is there is so much stuff that is Matrix oriented that if someone can't hack the net then your group is going to miss out on a lot.

1B.  Someone must be able to interact well with the Astral.   (Must have)
  The Astral isn't quite as important as the Matrix but its pretty important as well.  Information/recon/assensing all help move the game along & that doesn't even touch on the fun that is Magical Combat

1C.  Someone must be able to interact well with People.   (Recommended)
  A Face isn't mandatory, but I can say that it will never hurt & can often get you past problem areas w/o fighting.  Let alone the fun stuff like getting more cash out of your Johnson.

1D.  Someone must be able to take fire.   (Recommended)
  No matter how much you plan, eventually combat will happen.  When it does.  Believe me everyone else on the team is going to live a lot longer if you have a guy that can attract the attention of the enemy & handle several foes shooting at him at once.  Whether it be the most dodgy of Elf Adepts or the most brick-like of Troll Samurai, someone needs to not fall over when getting shot at so that everyone else stay alive.

1E.  Someone in the group needs a vehicle that can carry passengers.  (Recommended)
  Its going to be very hard to do a lot of jobs if half the group has no ride & the other half is on bikes.  Seriously, you can't extract the target quietly after knocking him out if you have to strap him to the back of a motorcycle.  1 or more Cars, SUV's, Van's in a group isn't required but its dang useful.



As for the 3 Key "phases" of a Shadowrun.

2A.  Combat:  Everyone in the group needs to have at least 1 skill/thing they can be doing in combat to kill stuff.
  Seriously, devote 6-7 skill points to being "Good" at one combat skill even as a Face/Decker so that when the shooting starts, your shooting back.

2B.  Legwork:  Everyone in the group needs to have at least 1 method of finding out info.  (Contacts are your friends)
  Legwork, so important, so often forgotten.  It really does move the game along when you can find those hidden clues.  Not everyone is going to have the skills of a Face or Decker, but even the Ork Samurai should invest in at least 1 good contact for "information".  Someone with the Corps, the Government/Law, the Syndicates/Gangs, someone to get you the knowledge you need if/when research or networking isn't your thing.

2C.  Support:  Everyone should have some method of supporting the rest of the group during the run Pre/Post combat.
  This really is a wide category.  From First Aid or Medicine to Sneaking & Disguise.  From spells to spy-drones or Perception to Lockpicking.  Have something that you can be doing to prep before the run, or pre/post combat.  You don't need to do 10 things, but have 1-2 to keep yourself busy & not bored as well as help the team succeed on the run.

[Herr Brackhaus]

It's actually worth noting that hackers make great B&E experts, unless you're dealing with purely mechanical locks, chances are you'll be doing a lot of hardware tests... and most hackers will already have hardware and a toolkit.. toss all the B&E toys into the kit and you're golden. This also means the hacker doesn't need to risk OS just to get a door or gate open.

Hardware is only used for Transponder-embedded key locks.

Opening the case on a maglock, regardless of it's other authentication methods, uses the locksmith skill (page 359 of the errata'd book). Where are you making Hardware tests to bypass locks?

[ScytheKnight]

Huh.. misread a bit. Ahh well, a combat ready hacker will likely have decent Agility anyway... and still having one character able to bypass any kind of lock be it mechanical, electrical or matrix is nothing to sneeze at.

[Aethelwulf1972]

Tarislar - in the case of your point 1B, is perception good enough or is projection the way to go?

the group i am in is just finishing up the second of the artifacts series, just leaving denver;  the group is a Mystic Adept that focuses on spellcasting, a rigger who is discovering the hard way how current 5E drones are fragile.  one player missed the first session (the chicaggo leg) and didn't realize how quickly we would be leaving denver, is bringing in a "merc" so I am guessing a primary combatant.  My current character is a Nocturna Adept  that is somewhat shooty and some what facey... started building him just after seeing Kingsman LOL. 

so Based on what I have read, I am guessing the advice for if my current character dies or I replace him/get a do over would be : Strongly consider a Decker/technomancer first, the something facey with a combat secondary?