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sum to 10 - Face/Decker MA

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ikarinokami

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« Reply #15 on: <02-20-15/1445:57> »
issues with this character.
1. your character without magic is terrible. so your magic isnt enchancing you, it's neccassary for you to function. so right off the bat, this character is D.O.A in the barrens (background count rating 4-6). is crippled by wards, which by lore are common occurances. with low magic is devasted by background count, with by the rules are literally everywhere.
 
2.  you removed all the sustaining focus,  which means after the first spell, you are taking -2 to all actions per spell, and in your case it's going to add up very quickly.

3. Your face abilites are terrible, why? because you have to use magic to be any good at it as opposed to being better at it. If any johnson, detects you are sustaining a spell during a meeting, auto fail. Most meets take place where there are either wards or the johnson employs magic counter measures for obvious reasons. not to mention that even though you need to go to these meets lit up like an astral christmas tree you dont even have the ability to take proper precautions because you don't have astral perception you can't even do proper astral recon of either the johnson or the location.

4. the places you would use con, tends to have wards, and mage security, which is generally why you are trying to talk you way past them, however for you to do it successfuly you have to be lit up like an astral christmas tree.

5. decking,  i don't think you can sustain a spell and be in VR. you have to resist physical drain  everytime you boost logic(which is dangerous given that you need to do it just be able to be compatent). if you try and sustain anymore spells that's -2 per spell for all actions.

6.  it's an awakened character that provides zero defense or offense against opposing mages or spirits.

This character can only be useful in the most ideal of ideal circumstances.


This character for me highlights, why unless you have alot of experience with the game, you should stay away from A Skills. You have wasted so many resources on skills that you cannot reliably leverage 90% of the time.

you would be better served giving up magic entirely. accept that you are going to suck at combat (that's what the street sam/adapts are for) and just focus on being a decker and a face.

and doing
A:skills
B: resources
B: attributes
E: magic
E: race

Marcus

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« Reply #16 on: <02-20-15/1609:20> »
10 physical and 10 stun boxes, 3 initiative passes most of the time and shoot with 15 dice - how is that less effective combat wise? Also one level of combat senses to make base defense 10 dice - upgraded to 14 with a single magic.

10 boxes is considered base, its like saying I'm taking an averagely healthy human into a gun fight, this happens but most prefer to take considerably more then average healthy people into gun fights. I'll agree 3 pass with a shoot of 15 ain't terrible, I'd readily accept that level of combat from a decker fairly happily. But the other weaknesses pile up. The soak is low, though  dodge is decent, it could easily be better. Also any kind of physical method including just plan getting knocked down is gonna be very effective vs this. Your Social limit even cha boosted will be about the lowest end of face possible. It's gonna be in trouble in any social surprise situation, I agree you can theoretically run one decent stat boost up at all time with focus concentration. But it's not the most reliably method for sure. That said your casting is low enough your risking drain, and that could stack up, if time became critical.

As it happens I do think you can sustain in VR, Which as I follow does mean you can deck with a decent logic. Which makes the character a decent mid range hacker. Though I think some will disagree with me. This is not a stunning effective cyber-combant, but that's not necessary. As to multiple combatants its dangerous trade off, two means local servers are more likely to shut down faster, and draw more aggro from GOD, but action economy does favor two to on one in most encounters.

That said Burning out is never a good idea from the stand point of efficient character resource expenditure, doing so costs payed for resources (Magic 5 and 6 is a good chunk of Karma), in build that is already spread very thin. While edge 2 is twice good as edge 1, that remains to low when your looking at really needing some support in many different fields. Lastly any run that includes any physically taxing activity will be a issue for this character. Climbing, bar fights and running are all decently common problems in runs, any of which would be pretty bad news.  Exposure to any sort of bio chemical attack (see any encounter with ghouls), will also be a major danger to this concept.

Finally sustaining a spell tells the other side your magic, this character is designed to sustain a spell almost always, the issue with this, your gonna draw magic fire and not be  prepared to deal with it.

It would be so much easier to take a decent stats pool, drop magic, get some more cyberware, and achieve all this much more easily, and not have 4 ones in the stats line. You would be immune or at-least considerable more resistant to most of the problems Ikarinokami and I raised, as well as having always up decent limits. 

Ikari's line should work well.
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« Last Edit: <02-20-15/1614:55> by Marcus »
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pts

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« Reply #17 on: <02-20-15/2146:36> »
1. your character without magic is terrible. so your magic isnt enchancing you, it's neccassary for you to function. so right off the bat, this character is D.O.A in the barrens (background count rating 4-6). is crippled by wards, which by lore are common occurances. with low magic is devasted by background count, with by the rules are literally everywhere.
Any magic character is crippled with such a high background count. A mage has -6 to spellcasting/summoning, a physical adept (with increased attbribute agi and reflexes) has -6 to all his agility/reflex tests etc. At least his character can still fight with his gun, so he probably takes the hit better than normal magic chars...

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3. Your face abilites are terrible, why? because you have to use magic to be any good at it as opposed to being better at it. If any johnson, detects you are sustaining a spell during a meeting, auto fail. Most meets take place where there are either wards or the johnson employs magic counter measures for obvious reasons. not to mention that even though you need to go to these meets lit up like an astral christmas tree you dont even have the ability to take proper precautions because you don't have astral perception you can't even do proper astral recon of either the johnson or the location.

4. the places you would use con, tends to have wards, and mage security, which is generally why you are trying to talk you way past them, however for you to do it successfuly you have to be lit up like an astral christmas tree.
3-Don't think maintaining personal spells is socially unacceptable. Enhancements, cyberware and magic is just part of doing business, and a johnson also won't cry when a non-magic character uses tailored pheromones or had a face lift
4-Considering the number of con-enhancing spells and powers, i doubt that the use of magic is supposed to make any con-attempt fail automatically.

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6.  it's an awakened character that provides zero defense or offense against opposing mages or spirits.
The group certainly still needs a full mage.
« Last Edit: <02-20-15/2224:54> by pts »

gilga

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« Reply #18 on: <02-20-15/2330:44> »
First of all thank you for the effort, I do not seem to be able to make a better mundane face/decker or an adept face/decker that is better than this girl.

Like many of you comments despite mechanically being a mystic adept - this character do not cover the mage role in the team. Sure she adds some nice magical abilities like average spirit summoning, and a few utility spells like awaken, heal and some attribute boosts. But well - you can't be everything.

And well - I do not want to stretch her too thin. I think that if I just want two free magical skills + some points to bring to 6 skill - summoning is more useful than counter spelling. I do not want to branch to more than two magical skills (that I get from magic priority) as I am already covering a lot of ground.  (First aid also seems more useful than counterspelling - maybe it is just me - but the best defense against a mage is to shoot faster than  he cast spells).

Other critique says that the ground I do try to cover I am not covering well enough. At least we now agree that the dice pools are reasonable when magic can be used. So branching into more magical skills seems like spreading this char too thin. 

About the 1's attributes they are not that terrible. Agility is terrible but I'll pick up a force 1 agility boost qi focus and it will help walking faster. (again nobody is perfect - walking/running will be a weakness no matter what I do).

Body is 1 but with mentor + cyberarm it is average. Average is enough for this char she is not a street samurai.

Reaction is low but she has no driving skills and it is augmented with adept powers to above average levels.

Str is low - well - that is life. If got close enough to grab this char you probably subdue her and she won't get out. attributes D is not enough to even put everything at 3. If you do not want to see 1's from some mystical reason - just don't pick low attribute priorities.

Combat this char is okay - with 15 dice to attack, 2-3 initiative rounds, 10 doge dice that can go to 14 with magic when applicable. not amazing yes, could be better ? absolutely. could be better without impacting decking/facing? I do not know how to do so.  There is so much you can be.

With all the critique about face/deck abilities at least we seem to agree that when we do have magic dice pools are high enough. I found a way to get +1 decking so to bring it to 14 without magic and 18 with magic (before specialties) by giving up the 8th spell bought with karma and buying instead the product brand loyalty.  I think I'll do that, and worst case should I get a better deck - I'll eliminate the property with 8 karma.

Overall, for me it seems like one of my better designs and I do agree that generalists are weaker and difficult to balance everything is a tradeoff and well this is why I like building them.
I now expirment with decker/rigger/mage builds and well having a really fun time playing them.

They are more of a command and control characters, sitting in the van tossing spirits and drones into combat, helping with astral treats and decking when there is a need, and both have 1's in physical attributes what erase the illusion that they belong in the line of fire.

This time, I managed to build an interesting generalist that well, seems like she can afford to be in combat. It is a big progress for me - haven't manged to pull it out until now. I am happy- I really enjoy being jack of all trades and picking the skills to use depending on what seems to be the more effective approach in that moment. I just have more fun at the table knowing I have many options to handle stuff.
I had a very efficient street sam - super combat monster. Protected from magic, really you do not want to encounter him. But well, having just sneaking and violence down my belt was really not that fun to play. I like talking, hacking, sending in drones spirits and stuff like that.

 
« Last Edit: <02-20-15/2358:54> by gilga »

pts

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« Reply #19 on: <02-22-15/0621:03> »
About the 1's attributes they are not that terrible. Agility is terrible but I'll pick up a force 1 agility boost qi focus and it will help walking faster. (again nobody is perfect - walking/running will be a weakness no matter what I do).
Use levitate for a movement rate of 5 (or more if you go above your magic rating). Summon a spirit and have it use its movement power on you (multiply movement by spirit magic attribute) -> movement rate 25 (10 without levitate). Not useful in every situation, but it's a nice option esp. for low agility chars.

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Body is 1 but with mentor + cyberarm it is average. Average is enough for this char she is not a street samurai.
most mages and deckers have about 3 body and 10 physical boxes, nothing to worry about

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Str is low - well - that is life. If got close enough to grab this char you probably subdue her and she won't get out. attributes D is not enough to even put everything at 3. If you do not want to see 1's from some mystical reason - just don't pick low attribute priorities.
Many str related tasks can be substituted by levitate.

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Combat this char is okay - with 15 dice to attack, 2-3 initiative rounds, 10 doge dice that can go to 14 with magic when applicable. not amazing yes, could be better ? absolutely. could be better without impacting decking/facing? I do not know how to do so.  There is so much you can be.
15 dice are good for a non-sam, and the rest is actually great for a non-sam character.

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With all the critique about face/deck abilities at least we seem to agree that when we do have magic dice pools are high enough. I found a way to get +1 decking so to bring it to 14 without magic and 18 with magic (before specialties) by giving up the 8th spell bought with karma and buying instead the product brand loyalty.  I think I'll do that, and worst case should I get a better deck - I'll eliminate the property with 8 karma.
The overclocker quality for a floating +1 to deck attributes is also nice

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This time, I managed to build an interesting generalist that well, seems like she can afford to be in combat. It is a big progress for me - haven't manged to pull it out until now. I am happy- I really enjoy being jack of all trades and picking the skills to use depending on what seems to be the more effective approach in that moment. I just have more fun at the table knowing I have many options to handle stuff.
I had a very efficient street sam - super combat monster. Protected from magic, really you do not want to encounter him. But well, having just sneaking and violence down my belt was really not that fun to play. I like talking, hacking, sending in drones spirits and stuff like that.
I'm also enjoying the generalist builds most (maybe generalist is too strong, but builds that have more than one single specialization). My mysad deckers usually needed to use drones/spirits for combat (no decent agi/weapon skills) and electronic warfare for perception. Really like your build for having full non-electronic perception and a agi-based firearms skill with good dice pools on top of decking and face skills.

Some more suggestions:
A R6 medkit followed by heal is good enough to keep people going. Counterspelling might be more effective to prevent those big wounds in the first place.
The Spell Awaken is better than patches, but not by much. I'd choose a different spell that provides more interesting options (or drop it for a pos. quality).
The Spell Hot potato is not that great imo, basically you waste an action to maybe impose a -1 to -3 dice pool modifier on one target (especially since you don't have a focus on illusions). Better get a spell to damage spirits, critters and dual-natured beings, even if you are not great at combat magic.
Bear Mentor Spirit can potentially cripple you - a test with 8 dice will often not get the required 3 successes, and the trigger is quite common (take physical damage yourself / other runner gets wounded).
The linguistics power puts you above your magic rating. Did you buy a qi focus somewhere?
Attributes D to E means a loss of only two attribute points, but would allow you to take resources B to get a good deck, the only missing ingredient for a great decker (the skills are already good enough imo). Or magic to A for +2 skills, +1 magic, +1edge, +3 spells.
Some posters on theses boards really seem to hate attributes with 1s / semi-permanently sustained spells and want to punish their players for using a character like yours. So check with your DM to see if he/she is ok with the concept.

gilga

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« Reply #20 on: <02-24-15/0121:13> »
Hi pts, thanks for your suggestions. I'm gonna give this char another go.

so lets sum it up:
1. replace first aid with counter spelling. Use a kit on wireless without skill.
2. remove 2 points from attributes fro attributes E ( gives us, charisma 4 and logic 4)
3A. money to B- for a better deck + better cyberarm.
3B. Magic to A for 1 more edge, 1 more magic 2 more skill points and 3 more spells.

I think that magic to A is relatively easy charisma drops by 1 and we buy cool resolve to offset it.
so facing remains the same.

Money to B - this is an interesting one. working on it now.
Still no knowledge skills and contacts, but it appears very nice.
I replaced the bear spirit and put some armor on the cyberarm.
I also had money for henhanced agility on cyberarm.
so for shooting stuff we improved by 3 points -1 from new mentor spirit (great mother) - that is 9 agility + 6 skill + 2 speciality -1 mentor +1 smartlink = 17 dice. 

Face skills dropped down - as the attribute is now based on 4, so we're looking in dicepool of 10(12) without magic and 14(16) with magic.

Decking now increased as I used a sustaining focus instead of focused concentration - it freed karma for decking qualities.

better deck + brand loyalty +1, and codeslinger for hack on the fly.

We get 11 base dice for decking, 13 for hack on the fly - magic push us to 17 for hack on the fly, and hot sim to 19.
Now this begins to feel like a good hacker. (atleast for this common operation) 17 for the rest of the operations.

Defense stays the same 10 with an options to get to 14 with magic.
I really like this more resource build - the deck is also rating 3 and had room for a level 4 agent that can gives additional bonus with cooperative work.

I know I gave up on facing for a bit, but the improved combat and decking I think make up for it.

Thanks for the tip.

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Danna Bar
Movement: 2/4
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 2 (15 kg/10 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 1605

== Priorities ==
Metatype: E extra - Human (0)
Attributes: E extra - 12 Attributes (0)
Special: B - Adept, Magician, or Technomancer
Skills: A extra - 46 Skills/10 Skill Groups (4)
Resources: B extra - 275,000¥ (3)

== Attributes ==
BOD: 1
AGI: 1
REA: 2 (5)
STR: 1
CHA: 4
INT: 4
LOG: 4
WIL: 3
EDG: 2
MAG: 4

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5
Initiative:                9 + 4d6
Rigger Initiative:         9 + 4d6
Astral Initiative:         8 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative:      9 + 4d6
Matrix Cold Initiative:    4 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative:     4 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Limits ==
Physical:                  3
Mental:                    5
Social:                    6
Astral:                    6

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 3
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Automatics                 : 6 [Machine Pistols]    Pool: 7 (9)
Computer                   : 4                      Pool: 8
Con                        : 6 [Seduction]          Pool: 10 (12)
Counterspelling            : 6                      Pool: 10
Cybercombat                : 6                      Pool: 10
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 3
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Electronic Warfare         : 6                      Pool: 10
Etiquette                  : 6                      Pool: 10
First Aid                  : 1                      Pool: 7
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Hacking                    : 6                      Pool: 10
Hardware                   : 4                      Pool: 8
Impersonation              : 0                      Pool: 3
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 3
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 3
Leadership                 : 0                      Pool: 3
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 3
Negotiation                : 6 [Contracts]          Pool: 10 (12)
Perception                 : 6 [Visual]             Pool: 10 (12)
Performance                : 0                      Pool: 3
Pilot Ground Craft         : 0                      Pool: 4
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 4
Software                   : 4                      Pool: 8
Spellcasting               : 6 [Health]             Pool: 10 (12)
Summoning                  : 6 [Spirits of Air]     Pool: 10 (12)
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 3

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Contacts ==
(1, 1)

== Qualities ==
Aged (Rating 2)
Brand Loyalty (Product) (Mydeck)
Codeslinger (Hack on the fly)
Gremlins (Rating 1)
In Debt VII
Mentor Spirit (Great Mother)
Mystic Adept

== Spells ==
(Tradition: , Resist Drain with WIL + RES (4))
Heal                       DV: F-4
Improved Invisibility      DV: F-1
Increase [Attribute] (CHA) DV: F-3
Increase [Attribute] (INT) DV: F-3
Increase [Attribute] (LOG) DV: F-3
Increase [Attribute] (WIL) DV: F-3
Levitate                   DV: F-2

== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Improved Reflexes 3

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Synthetic Full Arm (AGI 9, STR 3, Physical 4) (Right)
   +Customized Agility Rating 6
   +Armor Rating 2
   +Enhanced Agility Rating 3

== Armor ==
Armor Jacket                        12
Helmet                              2

== Weapons ==
Ares Crusader II
   +Gas-Vent 2 System
   +Shock Pad
   +Smartgun System, Internal
   Pool: 7 (9)   Accuracy: 7   DV: 7P   AP: -   RC: 4
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 0   Accuracy: 3   DV: 1S   AP: -   RC: 1

== Commlink ==
Novatech Navigator (ATT: 6, SLZ: 5, DP: 4, FWL: 3)
   +Armor
   +Baby Monitor
   +Biofeedback
   +Biofeedback Filter
   +Blackout
   +Decrypt
   +Defuse
   +Demolition
   +Exploit
   +Fork
   +Guard
   +Hammer
   +Lockdown
   +Mugger
   +Shell
   +Sneak
   +Stealth
   +Track
   +Wrapper
   +Browse
   +Configurator
   +Edit
   +Encryption
   +Signal Scrub
   +Toolbox
   +Virtual Machine
   +Agent Rating 4

== Gear ==
Ammo: APDS (Machine Pistols) x40
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Machine Pistols) x40
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Machine Pistols) x40
Fake SIN (Jenny Cage) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Ares Crusader II) Rating 4
Glasses Rating 4
   +Smartlink
   +Image Link
   +Low Light
   +Vision Magnification
Sustaining Focus, Health (Bonded Foci) Rating 4

== Karma Expenses ==

== Nuyen Expenses ==
« Last Edit: <02-24-15/0221:46> by gilga »

Marcus

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« Reply #21 on: <02-24-15/0142:52> »
Well Gilga you have my respect for shear tenacity and determination.
You have convinced me that you will make this concept work.
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pts

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« Reply #22 on: <02-26-15/1640:58> »
No more suggestions, just wanted to say i appreciate the latest build with money@B & will probably use it as a template for my next decker...

 

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