[Sir_Prometheus]

Lucean, all the same arguments apply to weapon foci knucks directly.  Why pay for killing hands when you can just use weapon foci knucks whenever you want?

I really don't see it as a game balance issue.  The Killing Hands power can't be broken, doesn't need an action to activate. It's also a pre-req for a lot of other powers.  Most unarmed adepts are going to get killing hands even if weapon foci tattoos are available. 

The more important questions is: why should unarmed adepts be denied the same advantages of weapon foci that blades people can get so easily?  (yes, they can use the knucks, but a big part of being an unarmed adept is being able to walk absolutely bare-handed into a situation and still being "armed")

[All4BigGuns]

The more important questions is: why should unarmed adepts be denied the same advantages of weapon foci that blades people can get so easily?  (yes, they can use the knucks, but a big part of being an unarmed adept is being able to walk absolutely bare-handed into a situation and still being "armed")

And why should they be denied being able to use Penetrating Strike (now that it's available again) with Weapon Focus Knucks? All allowing this would do would give them parity with the other melee users in attack pool and give +1 damage (much needed for non-Troll Unarmed Adepts).

Shock Gloves is another story entirely. I can understand not applying to that, but they work entirely different than Knucks.

[Sir_Prometheus]

The more important questions is: why should unarmed adepts be denied the same advantages of weapon foci that blades people can get so easily?  (yes, they can use the knucks, but a big part of being an unarmed adept is being able to walk absolutely bare-handed into a situation and still being "armed")

And why should they be denied being able to use Penetrating Strike (now that it's available again) with Weapon Focus Knucks? All allowing this would do would give them parity with the other melee users in attack pool and give +1 damage (much needed for non-Troll Unarmed Adepts).

Shock Gloves is another story entirely. I can understand not applying to that, but they work entirely different than Knucks.

Mur?  I totally think they should be able to use penetrating strike with weapon focus knucks.  Way back in the beginning of all this, I said it was somewhat arbitrary, but I felt all those powers (elemental strike, too) should be usable with knucks but not shock gloves (or cyberspurs, et all). 

[All4BigGuns]

The more important questions is: why should unarmed adepts be denied the same advantages of weapon foci that blades people can get so easily?  (yes, they can use the knucks, but a big part of being an unarmed adept is being able to walk absolutely bare-handed into a situation and still being "armed")

And why should they be denied being able to use Penetrating Strike (now that it's available again) with Weapon Focus Knucks? All allowing this would do would give them parity with the other melee users in attack pool and give +1 damage (much needed for non-Troll Unarmed Adepts).

Shock Gloves is another story entirely. I can understand not applying to that, but they work entirely different than Knucks.

Mur?  I totally think they should be able to use penetrating strike with weapon focus knucks.  Way back in the beginning of all this, I said it was somewhat arbitrary, but I felt all those powers (elemental strike, too) should be usable with knucks but not shock gloves (or cyberspurs, et all).

For the Shock Gloves, I'd say, personally, no to Penetrating Strike (-5 AP is plenty, though I can see reason to accept it--APDS in a Barrett anyone?), but Elemental Strike, I think should apply as long as it isn't the same element that is already incorporated into the Gloves (for instance adding a Fire effect to its base Electrical).

[Sir_Prometheus]

Personal taste, but flaming + shocking gloves seems like the step too far. 

[gradivus]

Personal taste, but flaming + shocking gloves seems like the step too far.

If by flaming we mean that the glove is on fire while it's also shocking the victim, yeah, probably too much.

But if we mean to do a round-the-world finger snap while shocking the victim, that's ok in my book.

[Sendaz]

Personal taste, but flaming + shocking gloves seems like the step too far.

Must be too early in the morning or something, but seeing this line the first thing I thought of was two runners in drag complaining about the fashion sense of their gloves.

[Novocrane]

Personal taste, but flaming + shocking gloves seems like the step too far.

So ... save it for the Shock Ram Weapon Focus + elemental power, that deals [element], electricity, and standard damage?

[Lucean]

Lucean, all the same arguments apply to weapon foci knucks directly.  Why pay for killing hands when you can just use weapon foci knucks whenever you want?

Knucks are a restricted item and can and should be possibly detected and may therefore (depending on the place) not be available at every opportunity. So no, the arguments don't apply to weapon foci knucks.

@All4BigGuns
An argument that something is needed for non-Trolls should also include a sentiment about that same option being applied to Trolls.

But reviewing the Street Magic version from SR4 one could argue that it's just again an oversight, because the "older" version was applied to unarmed combat attacks, so it seems like a reasonable house rule to modify the power to reference the used skill.
Since the attack still gains AP of a certain value and doesn't modify AP it would be of no use with Shock Gloves or implant weapons (depending on the level) so IMHO there still seems to be some balance.

[All4BigGuns]

@All4BigGuns
An argument that something is needed for non-Trolls should also include a sentiment about that same option being applied to Trolls.

No it shouldn't because that is completely irrelevant.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Personal taste, but flaming + shocking gloves seems like the step too far.

So ... save it for the Shock Ram Weapon Focus + elemental power, that deals [element], electricity, and standard damage?

You bring up a good point that that's probably legal, RAW, but I still find it a little dumb and might not allow it in my game.  I dunno, it's not like either Elemental Weapon nor Elemental Strike actually do all that much.....just seems dumb, is all.

Thanks,

Matt

[Leevizer]

When this came up at our table, none of us even thought of not allowing our Troll Adept getting knucks weapon focus and combining it with penetrating strike.

Goddamnit. Everyone is playing Shadowrun wrong, inluding us. There's no correct way to play.

[Shinobi Killfist]

@All4BigGuns
An argument that something is needed for non-Trolls should also include a sentiment about that same option being applied to Trolls.

No it shouldn't because that is completely irrelevant.

I don't think it's irrelevant. But I do think the far far bigger sin is making huge swaths of char gen design impractical and not one design breaking the damage dv limits. I can get a troll punching 16dv without much problem it getting more broken than that isn't a big issue as its already in the insta kill virtually all enemies range. But I do want a 4 strength martial artist to have effective options outside super sayan glowing energy field mode.

[Lucean]

@All4BigGuns
An argument that something is needed for non-Trolls should also include a sentiment about that same option being applied to Trolls.

No it shouldn't because that is completely irrelevant.

I don't think it's irrelevant. But I do think the far far bigger sin is making huge swaths of char gen design impractical and not one design breaking the damage dv limits. I can get a troll punching 16dv without much problem it getting more broken than that isn't a big issue as its already in the insta kill virtually all enemies range. But I do want a 4 strength martial artist to have effective options outside super sayan glowing energy field mode.

You have this option. Just have him compete in martial arts contest, where the opponents were no armor at all.
Failing that you can use Shock Gloves, Nerve Strike and Elemental Body.

If you can't damage an armored troll with a Holdout pistol, would you blame the system, too?

[Sir_Prometheus]

@All4BigGuns
An argument that something is needed for non-Trolls should also include a sentiment about that same option being applied to Trolls.

No it shouldn't because that is completely irrelevant.

I don't think it's irrelevant. But I do think the far far bigger sin is making huge swaths of char gen design impractical and not one design breaking the damage dv limits. I can get a troll punching 16dv without much problem it getting more broken than that isn't a big issue as its already in the insta kill virtually all enemies range. But I do want a 4 strength martial artist to have effective options outside super sayan glowing energy field mode.

A thousand times this.  I am all fine with the hulking monstrosity  doing huge HTH dmg because he is a hulking monstrosity.  However, one should be able to design a martial arts badass without him necessarily being a hulking monstrosity, and without use a glorified taser. 

Similarly, it's all great that Elemental Body is awesome, it's still a crime that Elemental Strike is useless.  Most inappropriate use of inter-edition copy& paste evar.