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So, is it just me or do High Agility Characters have a balance problem?

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Novocrane

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« Reply #30 on: <08-31-14/1011:25> »
If they reprint Jaguar / Leopard Shapeshifters, Celerity, & Satyr Legs, I'm guessing that will be the goto for going backwards in time or stopping the rotation of the Earth.

Sternenwind

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« Reply #31 on: <08-31-14/1441:05> »
And you can still top that with possession or inhabitation.

hmmm...
A mage who kidnaps a top athlete for his magical advancement. He will upgrade him with cyberware and use him as vessel for his inhabitation ally spirit.
... thanks for the run


But how do I handle a speed junkie?
In one of our runs we discovered the horror of movement. After not much discussion we agreed that, if someone is inhuman fast without fitting inhuman reflexes, there will be gymnastic or reaction test. And if it fails there will be crashes.
And if it fast enough we just skip the damage calculation.

If you have problems to image what happened if a person that runs with 130kmh /80mph against a wall, just look up what happened if a car with 80mph/130kmh hit a person.
« Last Edit: <09-01-14/0933:43> by Sternenwind »

ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #32 on: <08-31-14/1533:58> »
If someone runs that fast then how does he stop? Will the friction injure one's feet?
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

8-bit

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« Reply #33 on: <08-31-14/1637:23> »
I would imagine if someone runs at Mach 1 then they don't stop at all, or at least, what does stop probably isn't them anymore since they are probably flattened against something.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #34 on: <09-05-14/0531:51> »
Hmm.  Walking is (AGI * 2)m/turn; running is up to (AGI * 4)m/turn.  Sprinting adds 1m/turn per hit for a complex action.  Stand back - I'm going to use SCIENCE!!

Usain Bolt, the world's current fastest man and record-holder, made 100m in 9.572s.  He averaged 31.3m/turn.  Divided by 4, this would put his agility at a 7.8: clearly not something a human (by Shadowrun rules) is capable of.  At best, he would have a 7; let's give him a 6.  That gives him 24 out of those 31-and-a-third meters; we have to pick up 7.3414m per turn, or 22m across three combat turns, from somewhere.

Let's also presume that as an ordinary human, for those adrenaline-charged three-and-a-bit combat turns he gets 2 actions per comat turn - and that he spends each of those Turns Sprinting.  (You know, being a sprinter, and all, huh?)  So between those six combat phases, he has to get an average of 3.67 hits on his Running roll.  Hey, easy - he's already got a 6 in Agility, so ... oh wait - Running is based off Strength.  Not so easy any more.  Still, he's a pro - he's THE Pro From Jamaica, after all, so how many dice is he looking at ?  11 is going to get him the average he needs.  If he has an Agility under 6, though, he needs that skill pool to be six dice higher for every point of Agility lower.  Which means he might be a 5 STR 5 AGI character with a skill of 12.

So in order to equal the current fastest-man-in-the-world, a guy who's sprinting at 37.61 kph, you need an AGI of 6 plus a Running/Sprint skill pool of 11 - i.e. a STR of 5 and a skill of 6, or skill of 4 with +2 for Sprinting.  This does not look to me to be 'way crazy'; this looks, y'know, pretty near spot-on.

The thing with higher attribute levels is that they require modifications to your body, whether magical or technological, that are incredibly insane by normal standards.  From what I recall of the National Geographic article, scientists today believe that the top speed a human being's body could possibly ever achieve would be about 40 mph, just under 65 kph, due to the limits of muscle, bone, and sinew.  I have a character who is specifically designed to hit that target - and she does, pushing the edge somewhat.  This is a character with Exceptional Attribute and - looking ahead - Metagenetic Improvement, both applied to her Agility.  She has enhancements that lift her Agility to a mind-blowing 13.  And you know what?  With all that, her Running speed hits just under 40mph, with her sprint speed (Natural Athlete, Strength 8 w/ enhancements, but Running only at a 3, so an average 4 successes) hitting 44.75m/turn if she spends only one action on it.  Is this fast?  Oh, hell yes.  She's incredibly fast coming out of the gate, that physical rapidity has been a hallmark of the character since day one, and she's managed some serious spotlight moments because the GM thought the guy with a machine was far enough away at 13m to be able to shoot me before I got to him.  (Not true.  Poor bastard.)

What one has to remember is that anyone who does these things is someone whose entire body has been infused with better-than-metahuman tech and/or magic in order to do them.  They should be able to sprint at 72 kph, kicking Mssr. Bolt's measly 37.6kph ass all around the track; they're built for it, reinforced for it.  You want something sad, though?  A maxed-out Troll (BOD/STR of 15 each) cannot deadlift the current world-record by a baseline human of 460kg.  There's something that needs adjusting ...

In regards to the spirit-enhancement, though, the idea is that the spirit guides you and protects you as well as increases your speed - which means turning and stopping should be no problem.  A GM who plays differently is, IMO, screwing with his players, and they should take every chance to turn that ruling around so that spirits drive NPCs into walls at high speeds.  I also have experience of the supermach vehicle (an ultralite in our campaign); we houseruled that the fastest a vehicle could go was the spirit's Fast Astral Movement Rate, i.e. Force * 1000 kph.  If the current SR5 rule for spirits and Movement is 'increases its Movement attribute by hits', I intend to houserule it back down to the hits being a raw multiplier.
« Last Edit: <09-05-14/0556:48> by The Wyrm Ouroboros »
Pananagutan & End/Line

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ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #35 on: <09-05-14/0554:50> »
A maxed-out Troll (BOD/STR of 15 each) cannot deadlift the current world-record by a baseline human of 460kg.  There's something that needs adjusting ...
Adding an athletics roll to the equation helps...
*I have problems with clarifying my point in English, so sometimes I might sound stupid or rude.*

Novocrane

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« Reply #36 on: <09-05-14/0616:44> »
I would imagine if someone runs at Mach 1 then they don't stop at all, or at least, what does stop probably isn't them anymore since they are probably flattened against something.
If they're doing it at normal limits of human perception with no magic or other enhancements, I'd agree.

Lucean

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« Reply #37 on: <09-05-14/0624:54> »
Zelda, the test to push more weight is STR+BOD, and the troll would need SIXTEEN hits on 30 dice to surpass a human (15kg x 15 STR = 225 +15kg per hit on a STR+BOD test).
Yeah, this is really sad.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #38 on: <09-05-14/0629:17> »
A maxed-out Troll (BOD/STR of 15 each) cannot deadlift the current world-record by a baseline human of 460kg.  There's something that needs adjusting ...
Adding an athletics roll to the equation helps...

No, actually - straight lifting goes off (surprise!) Lift/Carry, which is the sum of your Body and Strength.  30 dice average 10 hits - an extra 150kg to the base 225, or 375.  He has to a) Push The Limit with Edge, and b) get 16 or more hits to barely pass that record.  Granted, the more hits, the further you surpass it at 15 kilos a hit, but still - a maxed-out troll should be doing something more than that, I feel.

I may have to play with that a little, find an equasion I like.  Do what I did with Mssr. Bolt up above ...
Pananagutan & End/Line

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ZeConster

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« Reply #39 on: <09-05-14/0749:19> »
Wyrm: I also ran some numbers on Usain Bolt in another topic, and concluded that with how rare running a record time is, movement may be about 15% too high for humans.

A maxed-out Troll (BOD/STR of 15 each) cannot deadlift the current world-record by a baseline human of 460kg.  There's something that needs adjusting ...
Adding an athletics roll to the equation helps...
No, actually - straight lifting goes off (surprise!) Lift/Carry, which is the sum of your Body and Strength.  30 dice average 10 hits - an extra 150kg to the base 225, or 375.  He has to a) Push The Limit with Edge, and b) get 16 or more hits to barely pass that record.  Granted, the more hits, the further you surpass it at 15 kilos a hit, but still - a maxed-out troll should be doing something more than that, I feel.

I may have to play with that a little, find an equasion I like.  Do what I did with Mssr. Bolt up above ...
First let's use our maxed-out, unaugmented human: Exceptional Strength 7, Body 6, Edge 7, for 135 baseline and 20 exploding dice. Using a 3888-sided die to simulate a Push the Limit roll (~0.39994856 average per die, or about 98.987% of the actual 0.4 average result), we get 0.01% of 420+ on the result, which means the chance is probably between 0.0001% and 0.001% for 465+, or between 1 in 1,000,000 and 1 in 100,000 of breaking that number (I'd need to use something else than AnyDice for more accurate odds). You'd expect somewhere between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 1,000 for totally-maxed-out people with records like that - changing 15 to 17 would give a 0.03%, or about 1 in 3,000, chance of lifting 459kg.
Meanwhile, a maxed-out-to-the-gills troll with 15 Strength, 14 Body and 6 Edge will have a 225 baseline and 35 exploding dice, which gives a ~32.92% chance of lifting 465kg, and a ~0.01% (about 1 in 10,000) chance of getting 690+ (50% more than our 460kg world record). Adjusting the multiplier to 17kg would give them a chance of about 1 in 3,000 to lift 748kg, and about 1 in 10,000 to lift 782kg.
« Last Edit: <09-05-14/0751:20> by ZeConster »

Xenon

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« Reply #40 on: <09-05-14/0834:23> »
Bolt have a running skill of 10+

ZeConster

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« Reply #41 on: <09-05-14/0933:37> »
Bolt have a running skill of 10+
Exactly (I assumed 11 and a specialization in my numbers). Using a skill rating of 6 and average results as baseline for a record time isn't exactly appropiate.

Csjarrat

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« Reply #42 on: <09-05-14/1016:02> »
yeah, i mean someone like bolt who is one of few competitors for "best in the world"
is gonna look something like this in shadowrun terms:
Attributes A
Exceptional attribute (strength) with maxed STR 7 and BOD 6
Natural athlete for +2 to running
Aptitude (running) with maxxed skill pool of 13 (sprinting +2)

obviously his years of dedicated training represent the extra karma put in to develop attributes and qualities too
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Xenon

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« Reply #43 on: <09-05-14/1107:40> »
He probably get an increase from a drug or two as well ;)

ZeConster

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« Reply #44 on: <09-05-14/1203:21> »
He probably get an increase from a drug or two as well ;)
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