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Movement house rule

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Namikaze

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« Reply #15 on: <07-06-14/1233:44> »
Umm... Wouldn't Trolls get 4m = 1 AP? Seeing as how they are like 3 meters tall... Or am I missing something?

By the default SR rules, trolls and dwarves get less movement than humans, elves, or orks.  Page 162 indicates that the walking and running rates are identical, but when sprinting, trolls and dwarves get 1m per hit, while the other metatypes get 2m per hit.
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zekim

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« Reply #16 on: <07-06-14/1253:05> »
(quick note: I'm replying to the messages since my last one in reverse order.)
Not sure how getting 2 melee attacks per IP isn't wayyy more unbalanced than what your PC was doing (which is what a melee PC has to do, and it's not like it's without it's trade-offs),

Where are you getting 2 melee attacks per IP?  The rules only allow 1 attack roll per IP regardless of source.

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but why not post this in the SR5 houserules section?

There isn't a house rules forum. There is a single thread, which is a terrible way to discuss things.

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You didn't ask for input,

This is the internet.  Simply posting it on a message board is asking for input.  If I didn't want input, I'd post it on my web site.

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you don't seem to be at all open to input, what's the point of this thread?

I'm open to input, but so far the input basically boils down to: "it doesn't duplicated the results of the current game system" and I'm ok with that.   SR has been through so many rule changes over the years that I don't feel beholden to try an duplicate the current system's results.

In the past I've run SR2, SR3, and SR4.  I've been running SR5 since it was released in PDF form.  The point is, I didn't just pick up the rules and decided that I needed to make them more like Pathfinder.   I have played SR5 as is for about a year now.  I don't like the movement system and I've given considerable thought how to change it.

Now, if someone points out where my rules actually breaks something in the system, I'll tweak my rules.  However, so far the criticisms have boiled down to green/purple preferences and differences of opinion.

Namikaze

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« Reply #17 on: <07-06-14/1314:09> »
Now, if someone points out where my rules actually breaks something in the system, I'll tweak my rules.  However, so far the criticisms have boiled down to green/purple preferences and differences of opinion.

I pointed out to you that your system makes it so that someone who wants to traverse 12 meters in a normal pace takes 3 Combat Turns.  I (and others) have pointed out to you that your system only allows for the following options: movement + action, action + action, charging.  Those break things.
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MadBear

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« Reply #18 on: <07-06-14/1357:29> »
And I've pointed out it actually works just fine. It's not at all broken. I think what you mean is it's not what you are used to. This system works great in DnD, without being broken. And I've used it in Shadowrun, without complaint. To some of us it makes a LOT more sense than the current system. What it comes down to is this method is not what you are used to, it conflicts with your understanding of SR physics. And that's fine. But don't claim it's broken.
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zekim

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« Reply #19 on: <07-06-14/1416:05> »
Sorry, but that list isn't proof.  It is a series of activities and not actions.  A better example would have been Charge, which is why I changed Melee attack to a Simple Action.

You didn't ask for "proof" of something.  You asked for examples of things that your proposed system breaks.

Ryo stated all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.

I asked for examples of this.  None were provided.  Ryo listed activities that might take longer that a single IP, none of which were actions in the book.


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I have no problem with the activities that you list taking longer because movement has a cost.    I also include two Free Action movement options, so depending on how far the guard needs to move, he can still do many of the activities you list.
Therein lies the problem - you are slowing down combat and removing some of the tactical aspects of Shadowrun's current system in favor of a whole new system.  This is why I suggested just going with a pool of action points that you can use instead.
 

So fitting movement into the existing system of Free/Simple/Complex actions is a "whole new system" whereas changing to a pure AP system isn't?

Also, I disagree with the assertion that combat is slowing down and that tactical options are being removed.  I would argue that the pace of combat is being increased as number of decisions per IP is being decreased.  As the pace of combat increases, the situation becomes more dynamic, thus leading to more tactical choices.

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There are a LOT of systems that could work, and don't change the fundamentals of the game's combat.

It is a game that has seen many changes over the years.  It was a far bigger change when the rules for Melee combat were changed to only the attacker doing damage instead of the winner of the opposed roll.   Movement rules have also changed over the years.  In earlier editions, it was proportionally spread across the initiative passes.  Now characters can take all of their movement for the entire Combat Round in a single IP.


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I disagree.  The game already rewards multiple passes very heavily.   After the first Combat Round, a character with 3 passes will get to go twice before characters with a lesser number passes can even react.  They get to go during the third IP in Round 1 and first in the first IP of Round 2.

Not correct.  By the standard system of Initiative, everyone with 1 Initiative Pass gets to act.  Then everyone with 2 Initiative Passes gets to act, then 3, then (rarely) 4 or even 5.  So everyone gets to do something before the speedy guy gets to go again.

You read my example incorrectly.  I'm talking about across multiple Combat Rounds.

Lets have three characters A, B, and C.  A initiative is 23, B is 13, and C is 3

Across two rounds the IP look like this:

Code: [Select]
         IP 1   IP 2   IP 3
Round 1   A,B,C   A,B   A
Round 2   A,B,C   A,B   A

If you translate this to a stream, it looks like this: A,B,C,A,B,A,A,B,C,A,B,A

Where player A is shown in Bold is where he acts twice in a row.

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I can agree with this sentiment.  Shadowrun has the potential to be a very tactical game.  After all, it was developed by the same people who developed BattleTech.  But your system slows combat down to a crawl, keeping people from being able to perform basic maneuvers in most cases.

I disagree.  But, I suppose it depends on your definition of "basic" maneuver.

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What sort of options do you get with your system, that you don't get with the current system?

The benefits of my system is that it forces trade-offs. 

If you are going to do a rear guard actions, you don't get to run away at full speed.

If you want to ambush a party, you don't need anime style exageration of distances to catch them in the open.

If you want to keep the security guard too busy to sound the alarm, force him to keep moving and ducking.

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Yes, a player has made a tactical error.  Unfortunately, with your system it will take them 9 seconds to get to that wall.

Where are you getting 9 seconds?  In Ryo's example, the character has Agility 4.  It would take the character, at most, 2 IP to get behind the wall and take cover.

I explictly stated earlier that characters can spend multiple Simple actions on movement in a single IP.

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If you made your combat turns take less time, then it might be realistic.

Really? Realistic?  Go watch some speed loading videos on youtube.  Here's one to get you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vnwg_kRRkM.  It takes a guy in a perfectly quiet situation 1-2 seconds to reload his firearm while standing still.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatP2CRiEkU is a SWAT competition.  Watch how long it takes them to run about 4 meters, shoot at targets, and reload.  Again, it is in a quiet situation where they are not be shot at nor trying to keep up "combat awareness".



zekim

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« Reply #20 on: <07-06-14/1425:47> »
I pointed out to you that your system makes it so that someone who wants to traverse 12 meters in a normal pace takes 3 Combat Turns.  I (and others) have pointed out to you that your system only allows for the following options: movement + action, action + action, charging.  Those break things.

Your continued instance that it takes 3 Combat Turns to move 12 meters shows that you don't understand the changes.

Some of the allowed combinations per IP pass:
1) Simple Action + Move + Step
2) Simple Action + Move + Run
3) Move + Move + Step
4) Move + Move + Run
5) Complex Action + Step
6) Complex Action + Run

If a character had 3 Agility, the above translates into

1) Simple Action + move 7 meters
2) Simple Action + move 6 meters + 2m/Hit on Run test
3) move 13 meters
4) move 12 meters + 2m/Hit on Run test
5) Complex Action + move 1 meter
6) Complex Action + 2m/Hit on Run test
« Last Edit: <07-06-14/1430:13> by zekim »

emsquared

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« Reply #21 on: <07-06-14/1505:44> »
Where are you getting 2 melee attacks per IP?  The rules only allow 1 attack roll per IP regardless of source.
I still play 4th, so chalk it up to my ignorance.
I'm open to input, but so far the input basically boils down to: "it doesn't duplicated the results of the current game system" and I'm ok with that. SR has been through so many rule changes over the years that I don't feel beholden to try an duplicate the current system's results.

In the past I've run SR2, SR3, and SR4.  I've been running SR5 since it was released in PDF form.  The point is, I didn't just pick up the rules and decided that I needed to make them more like Pathfinder.   I have played SR5 as is for about a year now.  I don't like the movement system and I've given considerable thought how to change it.

Now, if someone points out where my rules actually breaks something in the system, I'll tweak my rules.  However, so far the criticisms have boiled down to green/purple preferences and differences of opinion.
I think you're interpreting the input wrong, I think the resistance is; "You're trying to fix something that isn't broken."

If you can't figure out how your Melee Ads tactic has it's weaknesses, that's not a rules problem, that's a GM problem.

zekim

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« Reply #22 on: <07-06-14/1520:26> »
I think you're interpreting the input wrong, I think the resistance is; "You're trying to fix something that isn't broken."

I don't recall saying that the current system is broken.  Mechanically, the current system isn't broken.  I just don't like the results that it gives or the overhead it creates in keeping track of how far all of my NPCs have moved. 

Some people like how the system works and that is fine.  I don't, so I changed it.   I'm fairly certain that I didn't break another part of the rules with my changes and so far nobody has pointed out a rule that no longer works.

emsquared

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« Reply #23 on: <07-06-14/1537:40> »
I probably shouldn't venture into this area as again I still play 4E, but assuming 5 still has modifiers for moving while attacking/defending, have you not eliminated those with your changes?

i.e. there can be no penalty to moving and firing in the same round (as it's no longer moving while firing, it's firing then moving), and no bonus for moving while defending (see the former critique)? That may not be broken per se, but I personally love implementing modifiers for movement. In fact it's often a crucial factor to making combat more challenging for my PCs.

zekim

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« Reply #24 on: <07-06-14/1601:25> »
I probably shouldn't venture into this area as again I still play 4E, but assuming 5 still has modifiers for moving while attacking/defending, have you not eliminated those with your changes?

The only mods in SR5 for movement involve running, which I've kept.

As characters need to declare actions at the start of their action phase, they have to declare if they are taking the Running Free action, which places them in to the Run mode until their next IP. 

There is an optional rule in Run & Gun which base modifiers on how far a character moves; however, I haven't studied them to see how they would interact with my system.

emsquared

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« Reply #25 on: <07-06-14/1634:49> »
Some of the allowed combinations per IP pass:
1) Simple Action + Move + Step
2) Simple Action + Move + Run
With movement being resolved independently of "acting" as shown, it seems like one could use their Walk move to get out from behind complete cover, take a shot, then use the Step or Run free action to get back to complete cover. How is that not broken? The target has no chance at a reciprocating action. Or am I interpreting something in your outline wrong? In Pathfinder, you can't take a 5' step (here your Step or Run) in the same round as any other movement for this very reason - it's a broke mechanic.

I dunno, regardless, seems like you've taken something very simple and made it more complex, for no net gain at all. Just a shuffling of book keeping and some modifications of the rules for modification's sake.

Namikaze

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« Reply #26 on: <07-06-14/1637:16> »
Look, zekim, I don't know why you can't take criticism.  Maybe you weren't loved enough or something - who knows.  But don't expect to get a great reaction from me or anyone else when you post something for advice, and then spit in the face of those that disagree with you by using semantics.

Do what you want with your table.  Just don't expect me (or many others here) to be sitting at it.
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Ryo

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« Reply #27 on: <07-06-14/1648:35> »
Ryo stated all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.

I asked for examples of this.  None were provided.  Ryo listed activities that might take longer that a single IP, none of which were actions in the book.

I provided you with examples of things a security guard, who typically only has one pass, could accomplish in a single pass by the standard rules. By your rules, they can accomplish none of them, including basic shit like calling for backup. By your rules, it is very easy for a group of shadowrunners to take out the security team before they mount any response at all, since they only have one pass and your players will have 2 to 4.

Everyone acts on pass 1, and the security team has half as many actions as they should and accomplish very little more than moving into position and maybe taking cover. Then your team proceeds to steam roll them over the next three passes, and they haven't fired a shot or called for backup.

This is what I mean by being balanced around the idea that you can move at will, because you need to do a lot in one pass if your enemy has more passes than you, and the players almost always have the IP advantage over the enemy unless you start handwaving that every rent-a-cop and street ganger is loaded with wired reflexes.

Another example of a tactic I use quite frequently against my players when they're dealing with such grunts:

Run away, take cover, and use Jazz to even the odds. (Move as far from the line of fire as they can, simple action Use Item, simple action Take Cover.)

In addition to the examples I gave before, you've completely removed the possibility of splitting up your movement and taking any actions in-between moving or while moving.

Let's say some McGuffin the players need is in a room, and the security is rolling in fast, and your player says he wants to grab it and run. Standard game, he uses some movement to get to the McGuffin, spends an action to pick it up, then spends the rest of his movement getting as far out of the room as he can up to his maximum run rate, and uses his second action to stow the McGuffin in his pocket or a bag.

By your rules, on the other hand, he spends his first action moving to it (probably wasting a lot of his available movement in the process, if he was only a few meters away), spends his second action picking it up, and now he's standing in the middle of the room, holding the McGuffin in his hands, as the security swarms in and fills him with bullets.

Other things you might want to be able to do while moving: reload your weapon, shoot something, Use any skill (complex action to do so), take a moment to examine the battlefield (simple action to Observe in Detail), so on and so forth.

Let's go back to the skill issue. All skill tests are complex actions, so if your players want to pick a lock, or hack a security system, or make a Leadership roll, or try to Intimidate the enemy, or ANYTHING other than point and shoot, they have to waste a turn getting into position before they can, or stand in the open like a moron to get it done.

You've also made it literally impossible to perform most feats of acrobatics, since its no longer possible to move and use Gymnastics on the same pass.


Also, I disagree with the assertion that combat is slowing down and that tactical options are being removed.  I would argue that the pace of combat is being increased as number of decisions per IP is being decreased.  As the pace of combat increases, the situation becomes more dynamic, thus leading to more tactical choices.

You effectively took away half the actions people have available by making something that used to be free now require an action. How does limiting mobility and reducing actions increase pace and decrease decisions? You're causing more decisions, since your players are now trying to do the same thing they've always been doing with fewer options available, forcing them to stop and think longer. That's going to slow the game down, no matter how you slice it.


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If you made your combat turns take less time, then it might be realistic.

Really? Realistic?  Go watch some speed loading videos on youtube.  Here's one to get you started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vnwg_kRRkM.  It takes a guy in a perfectly quiet situation 1-2 seconds to reload his firearm while standing still.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatP2CRiEkU is a SWAT competition.  Watch how long it takes them to run about 4 meters, shoot at targets, and reload.  Again, it is in a quiet situation where they are not be shot at nor trying to keep up "combat awareness".


You want to bring video into this? Okay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

Try to do that with the standard Shadowrun rules, let alone your variation. Six shots, reload, then six shots in less than three seconds. That'd take three passes and a revolver modified to be capable of Burst Fire.

As for your example of a swat guy taking 1-2 seconds to reload while standing still in the quiet, here's a video of a guy doing the same thing in less than a second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8


I also don't see how changing the way movement works reduces the amount you have to track NPC movement. You're still tracking it, unless you stopped moving them.
« Last Edit: <07-06-14/1650:23> by Ryo »

zekim

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« Reply #28 on: <07-06-14/1748:55> »
With movement being resolved independently of "acting" as shown, it seems like one could use their Walk move to get out from behind complete cover, take a shot, then use the Step or Run free action to get back to complete cover. How is that not broken?   The target has no chance at a reciprocating action.

Technically, a character has to use the "Take Cover" Simple action to receive benefits of cover.   What your describing is someone entering and leaving LOS.

This tactic is already possible under the SR5 rules, so if it is broken, it was broken before I made my changes.

(The counter to it is to have the opposing side take delayed actions and then interrupt the character dodging across the hallway)

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I dunno, regardless, seems like you've taken something very simple and made it more complex, for no net gain at all. Just a shuffling of book keeping and some modifications of the rules for modification's sake.

I have found the movement rules to be cumbersome in execution.   When my players  face 10-20 NPCs in battle keeping track of how far each NPC has moved and when they transition from "Walking" to "Running" has not been enjoyable for me.   With my modifications, I don't have to remember how far each NPC has moved in the current combat round.

zekim

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« Reply #29 on: <07-06-14/1753:29> »
Look, zekim, I don't know why you can't take criticism.  Maybe you weren't loved enough or something - who knows.  But don't expect to get a great reaction from me or anyone else when you post something for advice, and then spit in the face of those that disagree with you by using semantics.

Thank you for your time and for being civil for as long as you did.