[Novocrane]

[technomancers] don't use DNI from trodes or internal datajack

Did I miss this being put in a book?

So, simply put, find a cable/port. attach data tap. stick on trodenet, plug trodenet into data tap. et voila, direct connection. easy.

Why not cut out the data tap?

[Csjarrat]

because if you just find an exposed stretch of cable then you need the data tap to bridge it into a wireless/wired connection

[Xenon]

[technomancers] don't use DNI from trodes or internal datajack

Did I miss this being put in a book?

The only thing a decker need DNI for is to enter VR. He can hack just fine from AR by just using a cyberdeck and an image link (but virtually all deckers get a data jack, if for nothing else the noise reduction, and if you have a datajack you already have DNI). Technomancers does not enter "VR", they enter a "trace".

I can't find anything that reference that Technomancers need any to use technology to interface and control stuff in the matrix. Quite the opposite;

SR5 p. 214 The Matrix
...and technomancers, who have a downright weird ability to interface and control the digital world without the aid of technology.

SR5 p. 216 Matrix Jargon, living persona
The mental “organic software” that allows technomancers to access the Matrix with only their minds.

SR5 p. 216 Matrix Jargon, technomancer
A person who is able to use and manipulate the Matrix without hardware.

SR5 p. 218 Personas
...although technomancers are a sort of device-less persona.

SR5 p. 223 Technomancers
Technomancers are able to interface both in AR and VR without the aid of a sim module, image link, or any other electronic devices

SR5 p. 235 Persona
Technomancers have a living persona not attached to any device. A technomancer’s persona exists in the Matrix as long as they’re awake, unless they deliberately jack out. When a technomancer compiles a sprite, the sprite has its own persona, too.

SR5 p. 249 Technomancers
Technomancers are metahumans with the mysterious (if not mystical) ability to connect to and manipulate the Matrix without the aid of technology.

SR5 p. 249 Technomancers Life
What their brains do—and plenty of researchers would love to know how this works—is learn the basic Matrix protocols, so that they can see the icons of the Matrix the way gear-based users see them. It’s like learning a language for them, and once they know it, technomancers have trouble imagining a world without that virtual vocabulary. It lets them see the icons and AROs laid over the world around them, and allows them to drop into the trance that is the technomancer version of VR.

(there are more)

because if you just find an exposed stretch of cable then you need the data tap to bridge it into a wireless/wired connection

(but if you find a device then you cut out the data tap and just plug the cable from your cyberdeck directly into the device for a physical direct connection)


Or you plug in a data tap into a throwback device, a device that is wireless OFF (because it is wired?) and then you turn the data tap wireless on to access the device wireless. But since SR5 want to push deckers into physical proximity of devices in order to bypass host ratings I am not so sure this will also give you a direct connection. Then again, Hosts only exist inside the matrix so a throwback device or device that is wireless OFF can never, by definition, be slaved to a host in the first place....

[Csjarrat]

Datatype is a bit pointless for decker outside of a few niche situations yeah, but invaluable for TM's.
 

[Xenon]

Got a reference that tm can use trodes + data tap for direct connection with their living persona?

(Or use their living persona with trodes at all for that matter).

[DeathStrobe]

Got a reference that tm can use trodes + data tap for direct connection with their living persona?

(Or use their living persona with trodes at all for that matter).

The Otaku? They did need Datajacks to access the Matrix in the prewireless world of SR3. While TMs are not Otaku, most Otaku are TMs.

It can be argued that Data Taps don't give wireless access since it's not mentioned anywhere in the book. So using RAW isn't exactly helpful. So we have to go with a reasonable level of RAI. We know direct connecting hacks are required for hacking high rating hosts and that there must be an easy way for TM to do that, skinlink echo, trodes, data tap, etc all have the same function, which is to bring the TM into physical proximity of a device to direct hack it.

[Xenon]

Aaron clarified that one of the main reason to use data tap indeed is to access a throwback or wired device wireless.





I am currently not sure if TMs really need an easy way to get a mark on a host like deckers...

A TM can use edge and a sprite team work test to get that single mark, but once she got it she can (ab)use it for a very long time since she can reduce and/or freeze her overwatch score by repeat threading low level Cleaner and/or sustaining a Static Veil. This let the TM use the direct connection provided by the host to all slaved devices (sensors, alarms, doors, drones, automated weapon turrets, camers, elevators....) and get marks on them all. Tracing them  all. Snooping them all. Sharing everything with the team's augmented reality heads-up display. Hours before the actual run start.

A decker would need to re-aquire that mark every hour or so to avoid convergance. Losing all marks in the process. Must start all over. Deckers would run out of edge if they have to get a new mark on the host several times when a TM only need to do it once. The balacing factor is that Deckers instead can get marks on the host if they manage to get into close proximity to a device slaved to the host....



But IF your table want to house rule that TMs also can establish a direct connection to a device then giving them "skin link" echo to establish a direct connection with all devices they physically touch sound best of all suggestion I heard so far (as it let them still use their living persona without the aid of technology which is one of the bigger selling points of technomancers) but house ruling that they can use trodes and that they can put a cable from the device to the trodes work as well (as they are still forced into close proximity with the device wich is the same limit we put on deckers).

House rule that you get a direct connection if you wireless access a data tap that is attached to a device will cause new balance issues to consider (as this would make it legal for a decker to create a direct connection from the other side of the world... as long as someone place a wireless datatap for them... removing much of the proximity requirement SR5 introduced) so this is not something I would recommend.

[Novocrane]

I can't find anything that reference that Technomancers need any to use technology to interface and control stuff in the matrix. Quite the opposite;

Sure, they don't need technology. Has anyone found anything that says DNI is incompatible with the living persona?

[Namikaze]

Novocrane,

The problem is that there's nothing to say one way or the other about whether or not DNI can work with a living persona.  I've houseruled in my game that all technomancers get the skinlink echo for free, which bypasses all this.  By RAW though, there's nothing that says you can't use a trode net and cable to create DNI.

[Xenon]

Novocrane,

The problem is that there's nothing to say one way or the other about whether or not DNI can work with a living persona.  I've houseruled in my game that all technomancers get the skinlink echo for free, which bypasses all this.  By RAW though, there's nothing that says you can't use a trode net and cable to create DNI.

But can your living persona benefit from a trodenet (how?)
Can your living persona establish a direct connection if you have a trodenet on your head (reference??)

A decker, TM or anyone really can establish a direct connection between their datajack and another persona datajack for secure communication, but this direct connection does not mean you get to "bring" your cyberdeck or living persona with your attack and sleaze rating. If you want to hack a device with your cyberdeck persona and bypassing host rating you connect your cyberdeck (persona) to the device - not your datajack (DNI).

A rigger can establish a direct connection between the "data jack" on his control rig and the vehicle he is sitting in, but this direct connection does not mean he get to "bring" his RCC persona with his RCC persona ratings (he will instead form a persona on the vehicle and use vehicle attributes for matrix attributes - which are normally very low, unless he is jacking into a space ship). If the rigger want to "bring" his RCC persona with his RCC persona ratings but still use a cable to the vehicle then he need to create his persona on the RCC and connect the RCC to the vehicle....

[Namikaze]

But can your living persona benefit from a trodenet (how?)
Can your living persona establish a direct connection if you have a trodenet on your head (reference??)

That's the problem.  There's no ruling one way or the other.  A trodenet definitely has the capability of giving DNI to anyone - but the question is whether or not a living persona can work through it.  I'm afraid we'll likely have to wait until Data Trails to get a definite answer.

[Xenon]

But can your living persona benefit from a trodenet (how?)
Can your living persona establish a direct connection if you have a trodenet on your head (reference??)

That's the problem.  There's no ruling one way or the other.  A trodenet definitely has the capability of giving DNI to anyone - but the question is whether or not a living persona can work through it.  I'm afraid we'll likely have to wait until Data Trails to get a definite answer.

Since living persona don't work through any other technical device i don't see why it should work with trodes or internal data jack/commlink/cyberdeck (aka DNI).

And even if it does, a rigger connecting to a vehicle directly with his data jack does not let him use his RCC persona so odds are a decker that connect directly to a device with his data jack does not get to use his cyberdeck persona. the rigger and the decker use trodes or internal datajack/cyberdeck/commlink for entering VR, not to establish a direct connection for their RCC / cyberdeck persona. Technomancers goes into trance sim module and without trodes or internal datajack/cyberdeck/commlink (and odds are they even can't go into trance at all by actively using trodes or internal datajack/cyberdeck/commlink instead of how technomancers eastablish a direct neural interface with the Matrix). The techonomancer could form a persona (not her living persona) on a cyberdeck and connect a wire directly to that, but even with a cyberdeck odds are she would not get to use her cyberdeck persona if she connect the device with her trodes or internal datajack/cyberdeck/commlink rather than the cyberdeck.

And if not the rigger, not the decker and not a technomancer that use a cyberdeck get to use their persona when connecting a device directly with a data jack instead of their RCC / cyberdeck why would technomancer's living persona (that don't even use technological devices to function, at all) suddenly get a direct connection to the device.

At best it make for a good house rule (similar that giving technomancers "skin link"), but I don't see how you can call it RAW (or even RAI)





........and as i wrote earlier, RAI might very well be that TMs are not supposed to have the ability to establish a direct connection at all since they, unlike deckers, have the unique ability to reduce their overwatch score to give them much more time to utilize their marks before they need (or are forced to) to jack out. And once they get access to the host they will have a direct connection to all slaved devices just like the decker, but for a much much longer time.

[Namikaze]

and as i wrote earlier, RAI might very well be that TMs are not supposed to have the ability to establish a direct connection at all since they, unlike deckers, have the unique ability to reduce their overwatch score to give them much more time to utilize their marks before they need (or are forced to) to jack out. And once they get access to the host they will have a direct connection to all slaved devices just like the decker, but for a much much longer time.

This is very true - and it may very well be intentional.  But without DNI, a technomancer loses access to several features of common equipment, such as smartgun/smartlink systems.  This may still be intentional though - unfortunately, the rules don't say one way or the other, so it's left to interpretation.  Which sucks. 

[DeathStrobe]

I don't understand why Xenon has such a hate on for Technomancers using DNI.

By your logic Otaku could never have existed because the Otaku's Living Persona would never have been able to appear just because the Otaku had a datajack. It makes no logical sense why the Otaku could use DNI to access the Matrix with their Living Personas while a Technomencer cannot. DNI is merely an interface, it forwards the data from a TM's Living Persona into the Matrix, just as it did for the Otaku before them. You are not forming a Living Persona with a Datajack or Trodes, you are merely forwarding the data to your Living Persona.

[RHat]

Technomancers can use DNI just fine - they connect trodes it wirelessly to their Living Persona (it's stupid that they have to do this, but there it is).  What they can't achieve is a direct connection, because they cannot plug a cable into their Living Persona.

I really wish people would stop pretending there was much of anything the technomancer's time advantage was actually good for, though.  The game is structured so that deckers can achieve the things that need to be achieved.