[martinchaen]

All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.

I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.

If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on  sensitivity in general.

[firebug]

I would personally kill several dozen people to save hundreds of millions.  Anybody who would rather let the hundreds of millions die is, in my opinion, the damaged one.

Maybe I'm a callous bitch, but this is my outlook.  This is a thing that risks destroying humanity itself.  If the death of 100 random people saves even just 200 people, then it's worth it.  Obviously though, I would try to make sure no one I knew was one of those 100 deaths.


Really what I want to say is that I'm surprised anyone who plays Shadowrun can't appreciate the kind of morality the entire game is based on.  What Butch is doing and what CFD is causing are certainly extreme examples, but a major part of the game seems to be about how you cannot just label something as "good" or "evil".  Everything's made of both.  The name of the game in Shadowrun is doing wrong things for the right reasons.  Butch and CFD are a major example of the dire straits that can happen when things aren't so cut and dry, and while no one wants innocent people to die, sometimes it cannot be avoided.

With nothing else working, the choices were to either keep it safe, play by the book, and just hope to god that something happens and a solution is handed to you at the risk of letting millions (essentially) die, or to push the limit of humanity, cross the line and try to save everyone.  Neither of those are "okay".  Neither of them are what anyone wants.  And anyone can say Butch went too far.  But I don't think anyone can blame her for trying when nothing else was working.

[Novocrane]

I don't see why Butch's actions should ever be regarded as heroic. Motivated by desperation - yes, useful - definitely, necessary - possibly ... but there's a long walk from there to holding it up in-setting as actions typifying a hero. At least, it is without whitewashing the process.

[firebug]

I don't see why Butch's actions should ever be regarded as heroic. Motivated by desperation - yes, useful - definitely, necessary - possibly ... but there's a long walk from there to holding it up in-setting as actions typifying a hero. At least, it is without whitewashing the process.

Without a doubt.  But that's something I like about the setting.  Aside from a few truly larger-than-life characters, there is no "heroes".  Not like out of legends or mythology.  Even the best-intentioned people have had to do things that would be considered wrong.  But no, Butch would never be considered heroic.  At best I think she would have others who can only come close to understanding how she felt and solemnly admit that they wouldn't have been able to think of a better way, or even that in her shoes, they would have considered it.  What Butch did is horrible, the best she can hope for is for others to feel the same as her; that it was necessary.

[Sir_Prometheus]

All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.

I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.

If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on  sensitivity in general.

Oh, that's great.  Now you're going to claim to be more horrified by the holocaust than any of the rest of us?

I really don't care if you had grandparents that were there (well, I do care, that would be very sad, but it still wouldn't grant you exclusive right to comment)  you're essentially claiming that you have some special relationship to the issue that gives you moral authority to comment, and any comparison anyone else makes somehow demeans the original tragedy.  And obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is either ignorant, and needs to be educated on the core subject, or needs to take a sensitivity class on how to hurt your feelings, because of your special status, less?

I find that entire line of reasoning despicable.  You're claiming the right to shut someone else up based upon whatever special status you claim to have (which, I cannot emphasize enough, I really do not want to hear what it is). 

Mengele was a monster who ran scientific experiments on people he considered "disposable".  I assure you I am aware of the details. 

Butch's actions are not dissimilar.  She subjected innocent people to experiments that led to their death.  She didn't reach the same scale, and sure, she had better intentions.  If you were the guy who got attacked by the nanite infected ghoul, and died after weeks of pain while your brain tore itself apart, I really doubt you'd care about the distinction. 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.

I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.

If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on  sensitivity in general.

Oppose away, and though I'm not the first who should say this, it's obviously a hot-button topic for you, so word to the wise - take it to privacy.

I saw the TV miniseries 'Holocaust' as a first-run show; I sat on most of the classes when my mom took a Holocaust course on her way to an MSW.  Some of my favorite PCs have had their roots in that hellhole, and one of them was a Mengele victim, so I did lots of research on the subject.  That doesn't mean that people can't use comparisons, or have stupid ideas or opinions, or that they should be prevented from doing so.  But in the case of this kind of thing, a) Fuck Sensitivity, People Need To Be Educated, Violently If Necessary, and b) it's EDUCATION you want, not blowing an off-key cheap tin horn.

So educate.  All the rest of us know that Prometheus' opinion - to the extent of 'Mengele!!' - is batshit insanely stupid; we don't need the education.  Get some links, throw them at him, and educate him.

Oh, that's great.  Now you're going to claim to be more horrified by the holocaust than any of the rest of us?

<snip>

I find that entire line of reasoning despicable.  You're claiming the right to shut someone else up based upon whatever special status you claim to have (which, I cannot emphasize enough, I really do not want to hear what it is). 

Mengele was a monster who ran scientific experiments on people he considered "disposable".  I assure you I am aware of the details.  Butch's actions are not dissimilar.  She subjected innocent people to experiments that led to their death.  She didn't reach the same scale, and sure, she had better intentions.  If you were the guy who got attacked by the nanite infected ghoul, and died after weeks of pain while your brain tore itself apart, I really doubt you'd care about the distinction.

Mengele ran experiments; they were as scientific as tearing one of the four wings off butterflies to see how they'll fly without them.  In short, he did what he did because he thought it would be interesting to do random weird/painful/damaging shit, and see what happens; it's the actions of a bully and a tormentor given free rein as an adult.  They were not scientific.  They were torture to see how people survived torture, and because the torture itself was fun.

Butch's actions are scientific - but she needs subjects.  She has a disease that is uniquely difficult to detect until it's in its later stages, and even at that point it's dangerous to try to experiment on its victims, because its perpetrators are targeting highly dangerous individuals as victims - ones who can fight back VERY effectively.

Butch is fighting bantamweight, while Mengele is the heavyweight champion.  Making the comparison on the public boards past this point is trolling.

So both of you - go fight it out in PMs.
I for one agree generally with firebug and Tenlaar; a few dozen, or a few hundred, eggs have to be cracked in order to make sure that the egg-cracking villian can't kill a billion chicks in the egg.  However, as with everything in Shadowrun, there is a price to be paid.  Namikaze, yes, I think that's the end result - whether it's after failing to lose herself in alcohol or some other version of 'getting wasted' in the Shadowrun world, I honestly don't think she'll be able to live with herself after the cure is found and being used.  She's a physician, she's having issues now with what she's doing, but she's steeling herself against it and pushing through her own problems to Get The Job Done.

Once the job is done, though ... to complete her story in a proper SR manner, suicide it is.

[martinchaen]

All due respect, Wyrm, I did not make the comparison to Mengele, and I'm not the one who continues to insist that it is a fair comparison.

I'll continue to oppose the view posed by Prometheus until he sees the errors of his ways, simply because I think it is important to highlight just how horrific the actions perpetrated by people like Mengele really were.

If it isn't clear to some of you how close to the heart this subject material is to people such as myself, I'd strongly encourage a class on the Holocaust, as well as one on  sensitivity in general.

Oh, that's great.  Now you're going to claim to be more horrified by the holocaust than any of the rest of us?

Now who's puttting words in other people's mouths. I never said any such thing.

I really don't care if you had grandparents that were there (well, I do care, that would be very sad, but it still wouldn't grant you exclusive right to comment)  you're essentially claiming that you have some special relationship to the issue that gives you moral authority to comment, and any comparison anyone else makes somehow demeans the original tragedy.  And obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is either ignorant, and needs to be educated on the core subject, or needs to take a sensitivity class on how to hurt your feelings, because of your special status, less?

Again, wild conjecture. I never claimed anything of what you're trying to twist my words into.

I find that entire line of reasoning despicable.  You're claiming the right to shut someone else up based upon whatever special status you claim to have (which, I cannot emphasize enough, I really do not want to hear what it is

Once again, entirely fallacious. I'm not attempting to censor you or anyone else.

Mengele was a monster who ran scientific experiments on people he considered "disposable".  I assure you I am aware of the details. 

Butch's actions are not dissimilar.  She subjected innocent people to experiments that led to their death.  She didn't reach the same scale, and sure, she had better intentions.  If you were the guy who got attacked by the nanite infected ghoul, and died after weeks of pain while your brain tore itself apart, I really doubt you'd care about the distinction.

I'm glad you're starting to come to your senses. Except you fail to grasp just how horrific Mengeles experiments really were. There was no sense or reason for his actions beyond Mengeles own twisted desires, no redeeming factor to his grotesque acts what so ever.

Your comparison bears absolutely no compelling arguments as far as I'm concerned. You are of course free to belive what you will, just as I am allowed to vehemently disagree.

Edit:
Wyrm, your point is received, loud and clear.

Thank you for posting in such a clear and concise manner

I am now done with this topic.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Mengele ran experiments; they were as scientific as tearing one of the four wings off butterflies to see how they'll fly without them.

That is not actually, in and of itself, unscientific.  In fact, I'm sure that exact experiment has been done, by actual scientists. 

I'm not going to claim everything Mengele did was scientific.  Some of it was just because he a sadistic psychopath, and REALLY hated jews.  Probably the most deaths were caused by really drastic quarantine measures against typhus and the like.  But some of the awful things he did were pretty clearly scientific -- like if one of a pair of twins died of a disease, he'd kill the other so he could study the organs side by side.  That's very scientific. 

Point is, nothing prevents something form being unethical an immoral, and still being scientific. 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

None of us have said that what Butch has done was either moral or ethical.  As firebug has said, doing the unethical and immoral thing for the right reason and for the right result is a large percentage of what Shadowrun is about.  Neither you nor anyone else should be shocked by this - or, really, surprised that the sixty or so people who make up Jackpoint, almost all of them criminals of one bent or another, some of whom have done colossally violent and criminal things and killed hundreds just to get one person out of a POW camp, have little to no frickin' problem with Butch gritting her teeth and doing what needs to be done as fast and dirty as it needs to be done to a few score in order to get information that will save hundreds, thousands, and yes, maybe even millions of lives.

But you're comparing a cook fire lit by a careful camper to a pyromaniac torching a high-rise apartment building.  They're both hot, they both use fire, but the degree and the purpose to which they're pursued is on a vastly different scale.  Feel free to keep the parallel - but in your head, please.  Or in PMs with martinchaen.  Because it is no longer appropriate here.

[Sir_Prometheus]

You're right that the scales are different.

But the very largest chemical explosions have about the same scale as the smallest nuclear explosions.....but do the smallest nuclear explosions have more in common with a similar yield chemical explosions, or with the larger nuclear explosions that can be thousands of times larger?  Point being that the scale is not necessarily as important as the nature. 

Anyway, I don't really appreciate the attempt at censorship -- It feels plenty appropriate and I don't feel obligated to keep it private.  No one is making you read it. 

[DeathStrobe]

I think Butch is infected. I think that's why she had such an "accelerated" testing plan for CFD.

Is she a monster? Sure, but who isn't. The best part of cyberpunk and dystopian settings is that line. At what point do you become the monster that you fight? Has Butch crossed that line? Yes. Is it worth it? Not yet. Will it be worth it? We'll have to wait and see.

[Sir_Prometheus]

That she might be infected occured to me too....it would explain a lot. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

I'm glad you're starting to come to your senses. Except you fail to grasp just how horrific Mengeles experiments really were. There was no sense or reason for his actions beyond Mengeles own twisted desires, no redeeming factor to his grotesque acts what so ever.

Come to my senses on what?   I haven't changed my opinion on anything.  What, are you trying to say I wasn't saying Mengele was a monster before?

As I said, there was reason to quite a few of his experiments.  Just because they were grotesque, doesn't mean they had no sense or reason.  That's kinda the point -- the fact that it was scientific doesn't make it OK.  Just like Butch.  If you belittle the Devil by calling him stupid, you're only fooling yourself. 

[Namikaze]

But you're comparing a cook fire lit by a careful camper to a pyromaniac torching a high-rise apartment building.  They're both hot, they both use fire, but the degree and the purpose to which they're pursued is on a vastly different scale.  Feel free to keep the parallel - but in your head, please.  Or in PMs with martinchaen.  Because it is no longer appropriate here.

Agree 100%.  This is a great analogy of the comparison.

Anyway, I don't really appreciate the attempt at censorship -- It feels plenty appropriate and I don't feel obligated to keep it private.  No one is making you read it.

In case you haven't realized it yet, this is not just a hot-button issue, but a personal one.  For several of us here.  If you can't respect that, then you're the one with the problem.

The fact that you chose to compare a fictional character to a real-life one that seriously caused irreparable damage to hundreds and thousands of people seems to show that you aren't capable of predicting the effects of your actions.  The fact that you have done this multiple times on these boards proves it.  The eternal optimist in me hopes that you will see that what you are doing is hurtful.  Even if you don't understand why it's hurtful, it should be pretty obvious by now that it is hurtful.  So please show a shred of respect and decency, and either change the comparison or close the thread.

[Sir_Prometheus]

In case you haven't realized it yet, this is not just a hot-button issue, but a personal one.  For several of us here.  If you can't respect that, then you're the one with the problem.

Oh, HELL no.  Same lecture I gave martinchaen.  No one gets some special permission, or special right to discuss an issue that others don't.  The fact that one was real and the other fictional isn't important, in fact, since the whole point is to compare the fictional character to a well known example, you choices are pretty much a real historical example, or some universally known fictional example. 

I used Mengele as an example because I felt the comparison was apt.  What other figure murdered large numbers of people in the name of "science"?  Note that comparable is not the same as equivalency.   Regardless, no one is making you agree with the comparison, that's part of the discussion.  But you don't get to say I can't make the comparison at all, just because someone might find it hurtful.  Feelings don't dictate truth.