NEWS

Immortal Elf Vs Sybil

  • 69 Replies
  • 21598 Views

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #30 on: <05-24-14/0741:46> »
As a note, Ghostwalker wasn't going full out. If he had been, there would have been large parts of Denver that were scorched with dragonfire, and you would have seen him bring spirits and more to the party. Not saying he went easy on Harlequin, but he was hindered by not wanting to lay waste to his own kingdom. And not only was Harlequin using a massively powerful weapon focus, but he was wearing the armor bequeathed to him by Big D, and you know that wasn't just regular plate armor. So Ghostwalker had some circumstances against him, and Harlequin had things in his favor, which made what would otherwise be a relatively one-sided fight into a slugfest.

As for why Harlequin wasn't himself, well, he's been more or less crazy for a few thousand years, and people do really, really stupid things for love. Aina, who he'd been romantically involved with for centuries, was seemingly killed protecting everyone at the Watergate Bunker from the backlash of Ghostwalker's ritual in DeeCee. So he was going out for vengeance. And when a person who has fought Horrors and can wade through Bug City as though nothing was going on decides to avenge someone, it would take something like getting the crap beat out of him by a great dragon, and both his apprentice and oldest rival standing between him and death to make him snap out of it.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #31 on: <05-24-14/1524:25> »
I wouldn't call Harlequin a Gary Stu. For starters, he has weaknesses, makes mistakes, curses his fate. He's not walking around getting laid with tons of people. He's bloody painted up more than a clown. Hardly that much wish-fulfillment. He's not by-far the best IE, since he had a hard time with his whatever-the-magic-duel-thing-is-called again. And he made a big mess to be able to catch Walky at a bad time, and still lost. He got saved, just like Sirrurg, but he's a dumb fool nonetheless. A Gary Stu would have won and have been convinced at the end to let Walky walk.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #32 on: <05-24-14/1532:32> »
Mirikon, good point.

Michael, the problem with that is that, given what Frosty says in Storm Front in reply to someone else asking why Harlequin didn't press the attack, Harlequin being convinced to let Walky walk is exactly what happened. And given the multiple definitions of Mary Sue/Gary Stu, it doesn't have to be wish fulfillment for him to be one. So the text itself leaves it perfectly open for him to still be a Gary Stu, but under a definition that isn't necessarily a bad one. Which is part of what Critias was addressing with his complaint on it.

A lot of this thread has been discussing the question of why people think Harlequin is a Gary Stu. The way the text was written on his fight with Ghostwalker really does give the impression.
« Last Edit: <05-24-14/1536:31> by SlowDeck »
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #33 on: <05-24-14/1556:04> »
I tried doing a Mary Sue test for him and hit the low range. Not that impressive. (Note to self, do that test more often with my character concepts for stories.)
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #34 on: <05-24-14/1719:20> »
SlowDeck, it only gives that impression because there haven't been many public high-level magic battles in Shadowrun. All the ones before involved Dragon-on-dragon conflicts, such as when Lofwyr and Alamais tangled, and those were more tooth and claw than anything else. Step over into a fantasy setting like, say, the Forgotten Realms, and there's plenty of stuff like that. What you're responding to is the dissonance of a fantasy character in a cyberpunk world, akin to a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. And that is something that all the IEs try to hide, since they are far more squishy than dragons.

And yes, Harlequin does make mistakes. In Clutch of Dragons, Ehran tells him straight up that he's rushing things, trying to do in months what ought to take a campaign of decades or centuries to pull off. Harlequin, however, was driven by grief and vengeance, and ignored him. If Ehran and Frosty hadn't shown up, he would have pressed the attack until Ghostwalker killed him. Their appearance, literally standing between him and an angry dragon, was like throwing cold water on his face. Woke him up and gave him a "Oh god, what have I done?" moment. The reason he was allowed to leave after that was because Ghostwalker had to turn to deal with the two massively powerful shadow spirits that showed up with the Azzies.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #35 on: <05-24-14/1753:59> »
Calling him a high-fantasy character proves my point.

It is not a lack of flaws that makes him too perfect. It is his sheer level of power and capacity to get things done even when he's approaching a fight from an underdog position. Outside of him and the dragons, that kind of power is simply not displayed. And the dragons themselves don't even display it that much.

He is a character who, by pure comparison of power levels, does not belong to this game. But the setting itself benefits from him. So I don't see how removing him will benefit things. And he is a character who is well-written and interesting; every action he takes is, once you get used to his sheer power, believable.
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #36 on: <05-24-14/1814:04> »
To be fair, in every setting where there is magic, there are individuals who are head and shoulders above everyone else in the field. Hell, even going to a setting a bit less fantasy than D&D, you still have the likes of Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter, for example. Harlequin and the Immortal Elves fall into that role in Shadowrun, incredibly powerful mages, well beyond the level of those who run the shadows, but not at the level of dragons, or those things that even dragons fear.

And him being well-written, believable (despite scale), and a benefit to the setting is the opposite of a Mary Sue, I believe.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #37 on: <05-24-14/1838:16> »
Harry Potter was Modern High Fantasy. It's basically DnD with a modern setting. Which is actually part of what made the series such of an enjoyable read.

And whether or not a Mary Sue is well-written does not necessarily negate it being a Mary Sue; it depends on which definition you are abiding by (note my example of King Arthur earlier in the thread).

Harlequin's actions and motivations are truly believable once you accept his power level; if you cannot accept it, the fact he stands out so much becomes glaring and he becomes about as believable as Albus Dumbledore showing up in a documentary about Vietnam. The other IEs make it far easier to accept their power through the simple fact they don't run around brandishing it in very obvious ways. It is the fact you have to first accept that, yes, he really is that powerful and really can openly take on a Great Dragon in a one-on-one fight and walk away that makes him almost too perfect for the setting. Especially since a lot of the setting goes out of its way to pretty much say that going up against a Great Dragon without being one yourself is suicide. Adding in the sheer scope of his plan and the fact he pretty much set up a technomancer revolution in the city only pushes him across that line. If you can't accept the premise that he is really capable of that, despite everything else in the setting effectively saying no one should be able to pull it off, then it goes from an awesome story of Lost Love Vengeance to an irritating story of Wank Character Does Denver.

And that's the disconnect with Harlequin. He acts like a DnD character. In this setting, acting like a DnD character is a great way to die young. Yet he did it, still lives, and will probably do it again. And for a lot of people, the difference between that and a character who is simply wish fulfillment is nonexistent. I'm not one of those people, but at the same time I have to admit that even the defense of Harlequin not being a Mary Sue only highlights the major reason he is.
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>

Senko

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2485
« Reply #38 on: <05-24-14/1903:51> »
Frankly I'd have more of a problem believing in his validity if he wasn't that powerful. I'm sorry but in a setting like this where someone has been around for several millenia (literally the whole of our recorded history) I expect them to have that power. Magic aside you can spend a century or two mastering woodworking then sword fighting then strategy and tactics perhap larning from people like Alexander the great directly, then computer skills, then something else. You can literally spend an entire lifetime mastering a skill and then go onto another so you are going to stand head and shoulders above people who've only had that one lifetime to learn everything they want/need to know.

Furious Trope

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 134
« Reply #39 on: <05-24-14/2305:45> »
Harry Potter was Modern High Fantasy. It's basically DnD with a modern setting. Which is actually part of what made the series such of an enjoyable read.

And whether or not a Mary Sue is well-written does not necessarily negate it being a Mary Sue; it depends on which definition you are abiding by (note my example of King Arthur earlier in the thread).

Harlequin's actions and motivations are truly believable once you accept his power level; if you cannot accept it, the fact he stands out so much becomes glaring and he becomes about as believable as Albus Dumbledore showing up in a documentary about Vietnam. The other IEs make it far easier to accept their power through the simple fact they don't run around brandishing it in very obvious ways. It is the fact you have to first accept that, yes, he really is that powerful and really can openly take on a Great Dragon in a one-on-one fight and walk away that makes him almost too perfect for the setting. Especially since a lot of the setting goes out of its way to pretty much say that going up against a Great Dragon without being one yourself is suicide. Adding in the sheer scope of his plan and the fact he pretty much set up a technomancer revolution in the city only pushes him across that line. If you can't accept the premise that he is really capable of that, despite everything else in the setting effectively saying no one should be able to pull it off, then it goes from an awesome story of Lost Love Vengeance to an irritating story of Wank Character Does Denver.

IMO, it's pretty strongly implied that Puck was working on the technomancer revolution anyway. Harlequin just provided a little extra incentive and vision. But I tend to think of Puck turning into an archetypal victim-turned-victimizer.

What I liked about this arc was it took Shadowrun's most notorious boogyman and asked, "What if he wanted to end someone more powerful than himself?"

And, really, he does a good job of hamstringing Ghostwalker by helping out the people who the White Wyrm has sodded off.

Also, I'd say Harlequin fully realized it was a suicide run. “Perish The Universe, So Long As I Have My Revenge” Doesn't exactly sound like he's wasted any time with an exit strategy.

Last, give Harlequin some serious credit: He won the big picture pretty much entirely by doing something none of his friends or enemies would have expected and allying with Aztechnology. Everything else he did was just giving GW an annoying month. Bringing the Azzies back both solidified the damage against GW's infrastructure and gave the other treaty-nations room to buck GW's authority.

Mary Sues' rarely have to sell their soul to their greatest enemy to get what they want.

Note: I don't really have an opinion on if Harley is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu (I prefer ignoring Gary Stu and using mary regardless of gender). He's a character who can easily throw off narrative weight in any story he shows up in.

And that's the disconnect with Harlequin. He acts like a DnD character. In this setting, acting like a DnD character is a great way to die young. Yet he did it, still lives, and will probably do it again. And for a lot of people, the difference between that and a character who is simply wish fulfillment is nonexistent. I'm not one of those people, but at the same time I have to admit that even the defense of Harlequin not being a Mary Sue only highlights the major reason he is.

This, right here, is why I killed Harlequin off when I ran my Denver game last fall. Great show, Ahab. Stab the White Wyrm. But you don't get to walk away. Period.

And, should I ever play in a game where it's appropriate to reference Harlequin/Ghostwalker, I'll have GW kill Harlequin again.

Good show, old chap. Time to shuffle off the immortal coil.
You're only ever one bag of grenades away from chunky salsa.

http://powerwalkinginthedarkness.wordpress.com/

Senko

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2485
« Reply #40 on: <05-25-14/0120:09> »
You ever consider that while Ghostwalker isn't forgetting the slight he's taking the long view and not indulding in some petty self satisfaction that would potentially disrupt a lot of power balances with the humans and more importantly the dragons?

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #41 on: <05-25-14/0805:00> »
Yeah, now that the initial moment has passed, I expect GW to take full vengeance on Harlequin, AZT, Puck, and everyone else who defied him. But he isn't going to go on a bloody rampage. Not yet. He will plot, he will plan, and then when he acts, it will be like the end of the Godfather, where Michael systematically wipes out everyone who was against him.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

Furious Trope

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 134
« Reply #42 on: <05-25-14/1055:08> »
You ever consider that while Ghostwalker isn't forgetting the slight he's taking the long view and not indulding in some petty self satisfaction that would potentially disrupt a lot of power balances with the humans and more importantly the dragons?

The way I wrote his killing Harlequin had GW playing on H's guilt to replenish many of the resources destroyed. Then pitching him in the garbage once GW had balanced enough scales. And Harlequin not putting up too much fight because of his whole emo thing.

And it sets up a more entertaining Ehran the Scribe Jokering Ghostwalker. Sure to entangle unsuspecting runners in the affairs of dragons for decades. I'd give Ehran better than average odds of winning that fight since he won't blow his load before victory is guaranteed.
You're only ever one bag of grenades away from chunky salsa.

http://powerwalkinginthedarkness.wordpress.com/

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #43 on: <05-25-14/1415:30> »
Except that Ehran wouldn't "Joker" Ghostwalker. If he felt strongly enough about avenging his old enemy/rival, he would spend a hundred years or so to plan, and then once the pieces were all in place, he'd strike.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

SlowDeck

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1015
  • How do people add personal text under their name?
« Reply #44 on: <05-25-14/1423:00> »
And when he was done striking, there likely would be little evidence left that he set it up at all.

That said, I don't think Ghostwalker will be marching on vengeance soon either. He cares about the spirits of Denver, and until he neutralizes the threat against them he can't risk chasing Aztlan out or getting vengeance on Harlequin.
"Speech" Spirit/"Astral" Thought/"Subvocal" Matrix/"Commlink" "Totem" [Time/Date] <<Text&email>>