[Leevizer]

Let me get this straight.

Using poisons is cheesing the system? Hell, she could have S1 and use a monofilament whip with a dicepool of 18 dice if we wanted to cheese this up.

We are not talking about a powergaming here. We're talking about someone making a character that she wants to build. So you are saying that instead of using, say, poisons, she needs to use shock gloves or make her weak character into a STR buff because that's how the rules work? The knowledge of how to poison knives has vanished from the world?

Just because we want to have a character that works outside the box we're cheesing the system? How the hell is it cheesing the system to take a weapon which has an ammo cost of a hundred nuyen per shot (injection dart with narcoject), SS capabilitity and a magazine size of 4 instead of, say, giving her Automatics 6 and an Ares Alpha with Explosive ammo? Could you please explain why this is cheesy? I would understand it if you were telling me it's something of a special snowflake thing, but cheesy?

Or talking about a melee option, there is little difference between having a shock glove and a poisoned dagger. Both need a "touch-only" attack according to the rules and both deal approximately the same amount of stun damage. Depending on the GM, the dagger might also need a new dose of poison after every attack.

And the throwing weapon being "cheesy"? The first message I got was that it was awfully bad and not worth it. But now you are telling me that being able to throw a Stunning shuriken to, say, seven meters is cheesy?

[Sendaz]

Which is why you should use Shuriken w/ built in Mini-Grenades instead. 

One click to arm, throw it and stick it in someone, then small boom, further driving those pointy bits deep inside. 

[Namikaze]

Let me get this straight.

Using poisons is cheesing the system? Hell, she could have S1 and use a monofilament whip with a dicepool of 18 dice if we wanted to cheese this up.

We are not talking about a powergaming here. We're talking about someone making a character that she wants to build. So you are saying that instead of using, say, poisons, she needs to use shock gloves or make her weak character into a STR buff because that's how the rules work? The knowledge of how to poison knives has vanished from the world?

Just because we want to have a character that works outside the box we're cheesing the system? How the hell is it cheesing the system to take a weapon which has an ammo cost of a hundred nuyen per shot (injection dart with narcoject), SS capabilitity and a magazine size of 4 instead of, say, giving her Automatics 6 and an Ares Alpha with Explosive ammo? Could you please explain why this is cheesy? I would understand it if you were telling me it's something of a special snowflake thing, but cheesy?

Or talking about a melee option, there is little difference between having a shock glove and a poisoned dagger. Both need a "touch-only" attack according to the rules and both deal approximately the same amount of stun damage. Depending on the GM, the dagger might also need a new dose of poison after every attack.

And the throwing weapon being "cheesy"? The first message I got was that it was awfully bad and not worth it. But now you are telling me that being able to throw a Stunning shuriken to, say, seven meters is cheesy?

Chill dude.  Everyone has their take on things.

For what it's worth, I think poisons are complicated and probably deserve their own chapter, like the Chemistry chapter in Arsenal.  The first step is to determine what weapon will be used, and what poison will be used.  Then there's poison acquisition.  If you need to make the poison there's a list of steps there.  If you need to buy the poison, there's a list of steps there.  Third, you have to apply the poison (without dosing yourself, ideally).  Then you have to deliver the poison.

So let's talk about each step, from a player's and GM's standpoint.

Step 1: Pick your poison
From the list of toxins listed in the book, there are only a few that really stand out as being viable for acquisition or creation (step 2).  Additionally, you have to pick a toxin that matches your preferred vector (almost certainly injection or contact).  Finally, you need to make sure the toxin isn't in the form of a gas - that wouldn't work for a weapon without very particular ammunition.  So our list is thus:

Gamma-Scopolamine (non-lethal)
Narcoject (non-lethal)
Neuro-Stun (non-lethal)
Seven-7 (lethal)

Step 2: Acquire your poison
If you're building your poison, you need to work with your GM to determine a set of rules to use.  There are no rules for manufacturing chemicals (or much of anything else) at this point.  If you're buying your poison, you need to find the poison and arrange a buyer.  Then you have to actually buy the poison - this process is identical to buying any other illicit good, so I won't cover the whole thing.

Step 3: Apply your poison
Depending on what type of vector you're dealing with will help determine what type of weapon you're working with.  Based on what weapon you're working with, you might be able to apply the poison to your weapon without any risk to you.  But to be on the safe side, you should probably invest in equipment with a chemical seal and/or a gas mask.  This will provide you with immunity in the event that you somehow screw things up with application.

Step 4: Deliver the poison
My recommendation is to go with the Touch contact rules.  The poison simply has to enter the bloodstream to be effective for an Injection vector.  Thus, if you're doing damage you should automatically apply one dose of the poison with an attack.  If you hit someone with, say 3 throwing knives coated with poison, then the target gets a triple dose.  Whether or not ties go to the defender can be worked out with your GM, but I would rule that grazing is enough to deliver some poisons, so ties go to the attacker.  Other people have different opinions.

Looking at this whole process reveals that the majority of poisons are going to be blocked by armor, and they're going to be non-lethal.  So I don't see how the option is cheesy or overpowered or anything.

[Reaver]

2 things to keep in mind:


AS Aaron has ruled in this thread, for any poison to work, (injection) it must inflict at least a point of damage.

this is supported by the entry for injection arrows/bolts on page 424

Injection arrow/bolt: An injection bolt causes the
same damage as a regular arrow or bolt, but also includes
a payload of one dose of a drug or toxin. Effects
depend on the drug payload, but to successfully deliver
it, the attack must deal at least one box of damage after
the Damage Resistance Test. This is an injection vector
toxin attack.

now, if you look at what is said about contact vector:

Contact toxins can be solid, liquid, or gaseous. They
attack the victim through the skin. These toxins, if in
liquid form, can be coated on a weapon. In this case,
they can be applied with a successful Melee Attack,
whether the attack causes damage or not. A chemical
seal (p. 437) offers complete protection from this vector,
unless it’s breached. Chemical protection (p. 437)
gives a dice bonus equal to its rating to the target’s Toxin
Resistance Test

They choose to not make mention of a ranged attack option for this vector.

They do, however make mention several times of injection vector points on ranged weapons.

As a GM, as my table, I would allow you to use injection based toxins on your ranged weapons. either by coating the weapon before hand (like the ninjas did with the their shurikens and Blow Fish toxin - an injection/ingestion toxin)

But that means you have to hurt them....which, with a STR of 1 on a STR based weapon is not likely. A crossbow might be the best bet.


Also note this little item:

SR 5 core. page 408

Speed: This determines how quickly the victim suffers
the toxin’s Effect. These effects are always applied
at the end of a Combat Turn.
[/u]Immediate means the Effect is applied at the end of
the same Combat Turn in which the victim is exposed.
A Speed of 1 Combat Turn means the Effect is applied
at the end of the next Combat Turn, and so on.

So, that poison damage does not come into effect until everyone has completed ALL their actions, and initiative is to be re-rolled... So at the end of 3 seconds for immediate. 6 seconds for 1 combat turn. (2 initiative rolls), and so on...


Meaning, that target STILL gets ALL his actions regardless of when you poisoned him, and possibly an entire other combat turn before the poison hits him and we get to find out if he falls over asleep or not.....

So, this is not as fast an option as may think it is.

[Reaver]

Step 4: Deliver the poison
My recommendation is to go with the Touch contact rules.  The poison simply has to enter the bloodstream to be effective for an Injection vector.  Thus, if you're doing damage you should automatically apply one dose of the poison with an attack.  If you hit someone with, say 3 throwing knives coated with poison, then the target gets a triple dose.  Whether or not ties go to the defender can be worked out with your GM, but I would rule that grazing is enough to deliver some poisons, so ties go to the attacker.  Other people have different opinions.

Looking at this whole process reveals that the majority of poisons are going to be blocked by armor, and they're going to be non-lethal.  So I don't see how the option is cheesy or overpowered or anything.

The bigger issue for contact poisons is the fact that unless you have a chemical seal, armor and clothing are totally ineffective, on both sides!

So while it is really cool to think of contact poisoned shuriken/throwing knives, poisoning the target by just splatting on his jacket, the truth is, there would be more then ample time to also accidentally poison your self as well both when you go to pick up the item (especially true for Shurikens), or in the "throw" action to splatter the toxin onto yourself.... (and thus poison yourself).

The other issue is, with ranged combat, there is no "touch" option... you either HIT or you MISS.... grazing hits (in totality with RAW in the whole book) only apply to melee combat options.

SR5 core book page 173
Grazing Hit
If the result of the Opposed Test is a tie, the attack is considered
a grazing hit. A grazing hit does not do any damage,
but the attacker makes contact. This allows certain
contact-only attacks (poisons, shock gloves, touch-only
combat spells, etc.) to still do damage.

Poisons: as written only apply to melee attacks.
Shock gloves: Melee attack
Touch-only combat spells: The name says it all..
Etc: ?? (nothing coming to mind ATM)

[Linkdeath]

Step 4: Deliver the poison
My recommendation is to go with the Touch contact rules.  The poison simply has to enter the bloodstream to be effective for an Injection vector.  Thus, if you're doing damage you should automatically apply one dose of the poison with an attack.  If you hit someone with, say 3 throwing knives coated with poison, then the target gets a triple dose.  Whether or not ties go to the defender can be worked out with your GM, but I would rule that grazing is enough to deliver some poisons, so ties go to the attacker.  Other people have different opinions.

Looking at this whole process reveals that the majority of poisons are going to be blocked by armor, and they're going to be non-lethal.  So I don't see how the option is cheesy or overpowered or anything.

The bigger issue for contact poisons is the fact that unless you have a chemical seal, armor and clothing are totally ineffective, on both sides!

So while it is really cool to think of contact poisoned shuriken/throwing knives, poisoning the target by just splatting on his jacket, the truth is, there would be more then ample time to also accidentally poison your self as well both when you go to pick up the item (especially true for Shurikens), or in the "throw" action to splatter the toxin onto yourself.... (and thus poison yourself).

The other issue is, with ranged combat, there is no "touch" option... you either HIT or you MISS.... grazing hits (in totality with RAW in the whole book) only apply to melee combat options.

SR5 core book page 173
Grazing Hit
If the result of the Opposed Test is a tie, the attack is considered
a grazing hit. A grazing hit does not do any damage,
but the attacker makes contact. This allows certain
contact-only attacks (poisons, shock gloves, touch-only
combat spells, etc.) to still do damage.

Poisons: as written only apply to melee attacks.
Shock gloves: Melee attack
Touch-only combat spells: The name says it all..
Etc: ?? (nothing coming to mind ATM)

Grenade wrapped in gecko tape? (Sticky side out)

[Reaver]

With grenades, you roll to hit an area, not actually the person.... with an ideal throw landing the grenade with in 1 meter of the target.

[Namikaze]

Page 173, Grazing Hit:

Grazing Hit
If the result of the Opposed Test is a tie, the attack is considered a grazing hit. A grazing hit does not do any damage, but the attacker makes contact. This allows certain contact-only attacks (poisons, shock gloves, touch-only combat spells, etc.) to still do damage.

There's not a single thing in the description of Grazing Hits that indicates that this only applies to melee attacks.  It specifically says that it can be used to deliver poisons.  I really don't see the big deal - as I pointed out, 3 of the 4 toxins that are available are non-lethal, and the fourth is incredibly hard to acquire (and presumably manufacture).

[Reaver]

Page 173, Grazing Hit:

Grazing Hit
If the result of the Opposed Test is a tie, the attack is considered a grazing hit. A grazing hit does not do any damage, but the attacker makes contact. This allows certain contact-only attacks (poisons, shock gloves, touch-only combat spells, etc.) to still do damage.

There's not a single thing in the description of Grazing Hits that indicates that this only applies to melee attacks.  It specifically says that it can be used to deliver poisons.  I really don't see the big deal - as I pointed out, 3 of the 4 toxins that are available are non-lethal, and the fourth is incredibly hard to acquire (and presumably manufacture).

I am lacking an example, but can you come up with a ranged attack where a "grazing hit" would matter?  Poisons. as written only can be used (in a contact form) with a melee weapon. Can you think of any other item that requires a ranged grazing hit to be effect to support using contact poisons (house rule or not).

[Reiper]

I wouldn't actually allow contact vectors to be used on a range weapon, injection, sure. Even on throwing knives and shurinkens.

So I would say that a crossbow would be their best bet honestly.

[Oski]

I read MOST of the posts in this thread, because the idea does interest me.  I'll just add to it that my own take on the issue would be that I think I'd allow throwing weapons to be poisoned, but I think I'd require a variant on the weapon to be purchased that would accommodate the poison without risk to poisoning the attacker.  I think I'd also require a variant for arrows/bolts.  Are there any real-world examples to draw on with this?  If someone poisons an arrow, bolt, throwing knife, shuriken, is there a variant to the missile itself that is used?  Assuming the answer is yes, I'd make the poison-accommodating variant cost significantly more and have a higher availability.  Like some others have written, I don't like feeling like I'm accommodating someone who chose to completely cripple one of his/her stats.  I do have a player in my group with a Strength of 1, but he's got a roleplaying concept for it and has not asked for anything to "compensate" for his stat decision.

[Leevizer]

And to be frank, my friends first idea was to go around using daggers for combat without any ranged option at all. But dealing 2P with a knife would be a horrible idea which is why I started talking to her about other options. There's no powergaming or intentional dumpstatting at work here.

[Namikaze]

I am lacking an example, but can you come up with a ranged attack where a "grazing hit" would matter?  Poisons. as written only can be used (in a contact form) with a melee weapon. Can you think of any other item that requires a ranged grazing hit to be effect to support using contact poisons (house rule or not).

Tasers, perhaps?  Doesn't really matter if there are two or more examples where a grazing hit matters, though.  The rules don't disallow it, and seem to be inclusive of it.  I could understand restricting the poisons in question to being injection-vector, simply because that solidifies the fact that the weapon needs to deal damage to deliver a payload.

[Michael Chandra]

Run&Gun: Capsule Rounds trigger the chemical but not the round's damage, while Tracker Rounds require an Edge test on a grazing hit.

[jim1701]

Also, the pistol crossbow is in there as well.