[martinchaen]

You never "Enter Commlink" and from there see devices attached with a hardwire.

Hosts are special

Solution to this whole argument about PANs in 5th:
Create a host (how many cheap microdecks are needed to build a host, I wonder) that protects all the wired devices subscribed to it...

I also wanted to say something about too much free time on one's hands... well, I guess I did. Oops.

[RHat]

How so. Gridguide, nearby vehicles, unsecured/low security lights, signs, etc., emergency equipment (such as hydrants). There are plenty of things to play with in most urban setting if you use your brains. You bring up the bar in the barrens as a bad point, but I don't see environmentals to play with being any less likely than gutter dwellers having nice toys to play with.

- Can't do anything useful in a fight with it
- Can't do anything useful in a fight with it
- Flare compensation/low light/thermographic
- Can't do anything useful in a fight with it.

You might be thinking you can use those vehicles to ram someone or create cover, but if they're in position for the latter you can already use them for cover, and as to the former that would require room for acceleration.  Gridguide might be handy for chase combat (though it would be hardened as fuck after the Denver incident, so good fragging luck with THAT), but for standard combat not so much.

In any case, the difference you're not seeing is the difference between the system working without the need for further, highly fungible additions and not.  Also, the gutter trash is probably not gonna be informed enough to bother turning wireless off.

[WellsIDidIt]

The gutter trash is probably using ten year old gear that doesn't have wireless.

As for your other arguments:
You don't have to take over a vehicle. You just tell it's autonav their is an obstruction in front and path it into the bad guys. You see, you do this to nearby moving traffic. If you're in an urban setting that isn't the middle of nowhere, there is traffic.

Grid guide? Divert traffic into the area for lots of moving cover.

Armor, dodge pool, invisibility. There are things to mitigate getting shot too. Not every tactic has to be uncounterable. Just because there is something that mitigates doesn't make the tactic useless. After all, we still shoot at people in this game.

Emergency equipment? So blowing a nearby main or hydrant to flood the baddies part of the street (and possibly knock them over/hamper movement) isn't useful in combat? Dropping the fire escape between you and the pursuing baddies in a narrow alley?

The system works, and has worked, fine using environment factors for hackers. The people that get the shaft are the sams, as they usually don't have much use outside of combat. If the run works as planned, 90% of the time there won't be combat.

You see the only way these aren't viable, is if the the GM and or player lacks intelligence or imagination. In which case, it's a GM problem, or the player should be playing someone that doesn't have to think. Deckers have always been a puzzle based concept in the past. There is no reason to shoehorn them into being an smash, smash, smash concept.

[Xenon]

...I'm not proposing a change to this.

This is how it work in SR5:
If you connect your wireless OFF (or throwback) gun to your commlink with a hardwire and your commlink is wireless ON your gun will not be connected to the matrix. A hacker can not access your gun. A hacker that hack your commlink cannot access your gun. In order for the hacker to access your wireless OFF (or throwback) gun he would have to attach a data tap to the hardwire between your commlink and your gun or attach his own cable inside the universal data connector of the gun.

In SR5 you can connect your smartgun enabled wireless OFF gun with the wireless OFF imaging device that have your smartlink (for example your goggles). Doing this will give you +2 accuracy (which is equivalent with the old positive dice pool modifier you got from earlier editions). Your gun will not have access to the matrix. Your smartlink will not have access to the matrix. A hacker will not have access to your gun.

The other option to connect your gun in SR5 is wireless. In this case you have a wireless ON smartgun enabled gun, a wireless ON smartlink and a wireless ON data jack (or other device that give you DNI). Your gun and smartlink have access to the Matrix. A hacker can access your gun. In addition to the +2 accuracy bonus you can now eject clip or change firing mode as a free action, compensate for wind by one level (but apparently compensating for wind is a bonus that you will never get if you play with WellsIDidIt as this bonus does not exist since the author did not list it on p. 433 - that it is mentioned on both p. 174-175 and p. 421 does not seem to matter for some reason ) and you also get a positive dice pool modifier of +1 or +2 dice depending on if you payed essence for your smartlink or not.

At your table you might or might not get the wireless bonus with your Connected house-rule in the first example (maybe if you slave the gun to your imaging device and have the imaging device have a cable to your commlink and your commlink have wireless ON or whatever) - but i can't see any reference that you get connected to the matrix by using a proxy in SR5. Not. a. single. one.


If getting matrix access simply by connecting a wire to a device that is wireless ON is RAW;
- Please show me the page reference that support your reading.


Also... IF you introduce this house rule THEN you will have to deal with stuff like how to handle a daisy chaining multiple devices with multiple cables (maybe a gun is connected to your goggles and your goggles connected to your commlink) and then having a top tier device (like a commlink) set to wireless ON. Also, if all devices are connected this way do you get access to all devices in the entire network when you attach to a single cable or do you still only get access to the two devices at either end of that specific cable...



I am not saying your idea is good or bad.
I just can't find anything in core to support your claim.

[martinchaen]

If you connect your wireless OFF (or throwback) gun to your commlink with a hardwire and your commlink is wireless ON your gun will not be connected to the matrix. A hacker can not access your gun. A hacker that hack your commlink cannot access your gun.

Are we absolutely sure of this?

The following note in Direction Connections from page 232 has me curious:
"When you use a direct connection, you ignore all noise modifiers and modifiers due to being on different grids or the public grid. It’s just you and the device."

Then, under PANs and WANs, page 233:
"If a slaved device is under attack via a direct connection (as through a universal data connector), however, it cannot use its master’s ratings to defend itself."

And again, back to page 232:
"Some devices don’t have wireless capability. Usually this is because the person who bought the device couldn’t afford one that was less than ten years old, or because they thought they’d be more secure without wireless. These devices are called throwbacks.Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection, so they can’t be controlled remotely or get a wireless bonus for being connected to the Matrix. They still have universal data connectors, so you can connect to them (and hack them) by jacking in directly."

I guess my mind just isn't capable of the logical leap required to preclude accessing a non-wireless device through a directly connected wireless device.

I know that the matrix topology has been changed in-game under SR5 rules, but by it's very nature a connection exists between two devices that are directly connected; how is wirelessly accessing a data tap (assume you can, even though I know this is a debated topic as well) any different from wirelessly accessing a device that is directly connected to another? That's my issue with the "you can't hack a device connected to another device" mentality. I've seen nothing in the rules that specifically spell out how you can connect to a device wirelessly (and if it's there, please do point it out to me; I'll be the first to admit that I haven't comprehended these rules nearly well enough).

I'll ask in the FAQ thread just for my own sake, even though chances are it won't be answered. Or at least search the thread for an answer, and then post if I can't find anything...

[Medicineman]

@Xenon

Doing this will give you +2 accuracy (which is equivalent with the old positive dice pool modifier you got from earlier editions).

sorry ,but thats just wrong
in 4A a Smartlink gave a plain +2 situational Dicepool modifier
thats completely different from adding 2 to a chars Acc.
I don't want to beat a dead Horse(WiFi Bonus often makes no sense is the dead Horse) thats why I don't want to continue in this discussion 

With a Dance infront of a dead Horse
Medicineman

[Xenon]

The following note in Direction Connections from page 232 has me curious:
"When you use a direct connection, you ignore all noise modifiers and modifiers due to being on different grids or the public grid. It’s just you and the device."

When you connect directly with a cable you are not connecting to the device through the matrix. or any grid for that matter. It is just you and the device.
- It is not you, the device and the rest of the matrix.

Then, under PANs and WANs, page 233:
"If a slaved device is under attack via a direct connection (as through a universal data connector), however, it cannot use its master’s ratings to defend itself."

If you connect directly to a device that is slaved with a wire or wireless to a master device or host then you are not connecting to the device through the matrix. or any grid for that matter. It is just you and the device.
- It is not you, the device and the rest of the matrix.

And again, back to page 232:
"Some devices don’t have wireless capability. Usually this is because the person who bought the device couldn’t afford one that was less than ten years old, or because they thought they’d be more secure without wireless. These devices are called throwbacks.Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection, so they can’t be controlled remotely or get a wireless bonus for being connected to the Matrix. They still have universal data connectors, so you can connect to them (and hack them) by jacking in directly."

Since it have no wireless capability it can not (never) connect to the matrix.
You can not (never) remote control them from the matrix.
It can not (never) get a wireless bonus as it is not connected to the matrix

You can still connect it to a another device with a cable.
But it will not get matrix access.
And you can not remote control it from the matrix.
And it will not get wireless (or connected) bonus.

You can not hack it (unless you data tap said cable which give you a direct connection to both devices or if you establish a direct connection through it's universal data connector).

Connecting the device to a commlink that is wireless ON does not give it access to the matrix and the matrix does not get access to the device.



There might or might not be a way to make a throwback device wireless enabled (maybe by attaching a wifi-dongle in it's universal data connector or something), but running a cable from a gun to your commlink does not give the throwback device access to the matrix.

[martinchaen]

My point is, where are the rules for what you can connect to and how? The rules just say "icons", as far as I'm aware?

Without a topology chapter, the entire matrix section of the rules are lacking, in my opinion.

[Xenon]

in 4A a Smartlink gave a plain +2 situational Dicepool modifier
thats completely different from adding 2 to a chars Acc.

You might want to go through positive dice pool modifiers from SR4 and check if they give a positive limit bonus or if they give a positive dice pool modifier in SR5.

I am aware that a positive dice pool modifier from SR4 is not identical (game mechanic wise) to a positive limit modifier from SR5,
but the SR5 positive limit modifier is the equivalent of the SR4 positive dice pool modifier.

[Kincaid]

My point is, where are the rules for what you can connect to and how? The rules just say "icons", as far as I'm aware?

Without a topology chapter, the entire matrix section of the rules are lacking, in my opinion.

I agree that it's not as well spelled out as it might be, but my reading is the same as Xenon's.  Running a cable from your datajack to your throwback gun should allow you a certain amount of mental control (ejecting clips, firing, etc.), but you'll never get the +2 dice.

[Medicineman]

but the SR5 positive limit modifier is the equivalent of the SR4 positive dice pool modifier.

Hmmm
I think a positive (dice)modifier and not a Limit modifier is the equivalent to a positive(dice) modifier (like Specialisation f.E.)

with a modified Dance
Medicineman

[Xenon]

Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection, so they can’t be controlled remotely or get a wireless bonus for being connected to the Matrix. They still have universal data connectors, so you can connect to them (and hack them) by jacking in directly.


1) They cannot be remotely controlled.
If they can get matrix access by proxy they can be remotely controlled.
Since  they can not be remotely controlled this mean they cannot get matrix access (even by proxy).

2) They cannot get wireless bonus.
If they can get matrix access by proxy they can get wireless bonus for being connected to the matrix.
Since  they can not get matrix access this mean they cannot get wireless (or connected) bonus (even by proxy).

3) You have to connect to them by jacking in directly.
If they can get accessed from the matrix by proxy they can be hacked from matrix
Since they can't be accessed and hacked from matrix this mean they cannot get accessed from the matrix (even by proxy).
- you have to use a direct cable to it's universal data connector to jack into them directly (not from the matrix).

[martinchaen]

My point is, where are the rules for what you can connect to and how? The rules just say "icons", as far as I'm aware?

Without a topology chapter, the entire matrix section of the rules are lacking, in my opinion.

I agree that it's not as well spelled out as it might be, but my reading is the same as Xenon's.  Running a cable from your datajack to your throwback gun should allow you a certain amount of mental control (ejecting clips, firing, etc.), but you'll never get the +2 dice.

Why would it get +2 dice? Can a throwback even use a smartlink?

My intent was more along the lines of can it (meaning any device, not just a throwback) be hacked through a direct connection? If it can be accessed through a universal data connector (i.e. direct connection), then chances are it's electronic in some way, shape, or form. While it is almost certain that a device cannot access the matrix through a direct connection, the fact remains that the device can access another device; it logically follows (with no rules clearly stating one way or another) that a device capable of accessing another device can access a wired device, similar to how a WAN works.

To my mind, it is pretty clear that devices can be interconnected through wires and wireless, hosts being the example that comes to mind. Are hosts really so radically different in their protocols/topology/interconnectedness (heh, new word!) that their principles cannot apply to other aspects of the Matrix?

Throwbacks can’t be accessed by wireless connection, so they can’t be controlled remotely or get a wireless bonus for being connected to the Matrix. They still have universal data connectors, so you can connect to them (and hack them) by jacking in directly.


1) They cannot be remotely controlled.
If they can get matrix access by proxy they can be remotely controlled.
Since  they can not be remotely controlled this mean they cannot get matrix access (even by proxy).

2) They cannot get wireless bonus.
If they can get matrix access by proxy they can get wireless bonus for being connected to the matrix.
Since  they can not get matrix access this mean they cannot get wireless (or connected) bonus (even by proxy).

3) You have to connect to them by jacking in directly.
If they can get accessed from the matrix by proxy they can be hacked from matrix
Since they can't be accessed and hacked from matrix this mean they cannot get accessed from the matrix (even by proxy).
- you have to use a direct cable to it's universal data connector to jack into them directly (not from the matrix).

I disagree with your reading of the throwback reading, Xenon, because to my mind you seem to focus on the "for being connected to the Matrix" part of the statement. The "by proxy" part is not covered at all in the rules, and as such is merely your opinion as I see it. But, my argument was not restricted to throwbacks, and whether the device is a throwback or not should not matter since the connection would be wireless between two devices, and wired to a third from one of the wireless. I just can't imagine that this has somehow become impossible, as it means that very basic connectivity is no longer possible (relay hopping and signal extension through wires, for instance, in other words getting Matrix signals from one point to another through a wire).

Without a clear indication of what Matrix 3.0 (I guess, after Crash 2.0) topology is, we can argue the merits of rules minute all day and we ultimately won't have a clear answer, as it's all based on interpretation of rules lacking the very key component we're arguing.

In any case, I've said my piece; I'll wait for official word, or failing that, Data Trails to be released.

[Xenon]

...Can a throwback even use a smartlink?

Of course it can
You can connect a smartgun enabled throwback (or wireless OFF) firearm with a cable to your throwback (or wireless OFF) imaging device that have a smartlink. According to p.433 that is one of the only two mentioned ways you can connect a smartgun enabled firearm with a smartlink.

...The "by proxy" part is not covered at all in the rules

Thank you.
That is what I have been saying all along.
You (or anyone else) can't claim that you can make a connection by proxy and call it RAW since it is not covered at all in the rules.

...and wired to a third from one ...

There is no mentioning that you can daisy chain wireless OFF devices like this.
RAW say you can connect two devices with each other.
They get a direct connection.

RAW does not say your first device get a direct connection if you connect a third device....
This is an assumption on your part.



RAW does say that if your device is wireless OFF then it cannot connect to the matrix, be remote controlled or get wireless bonus. If there had been an exception to this - for example if it could be connected to the matrix, be remote controlled or get a wireless bonus if it is connected to a device that have wireless ON - then it would have said so. It doesn't. RAW say you have to establish a direct connection if you want to access or hack it. RAW list the ways you can establish a direct connection to a device. Most of them involve physical access to it's universal data connector.



You are also assuming that you can slave a wireless OFF device to a Host. Since the only way to hack a wireless OFF device is through direct connection and direct connection always bypass the master/slave coupling then why would it even be possible to slave a wireless OFF device in the first place. It offer no advantages. No added protection....... A Host is not a physical entity. It is a Matrix phenomena. If your wireless OFF device cannot access the matrix then how can it slave to a matrix only Host....? A device have to be on the Grid if you want to slave it to a Host (there are several clarifications by Aaron on this in the FAQ thread). All slaved devices have an icon on a Grid. All master devices have an icon on a Grid. I would even go so far as assuming that the act of slaving a device is something you can only do from within the matrix....

[Namikaze]

This is how it work in SR5:
If you connect your wireless OFF (or throwback) gun to your commlink with a hardwire and your commlink is wireless ON your gun will not be connected to the matrix. A hacker can not access your gun. A hacker that hack your commlink cannot access your gun. In order for the hacker to access your wireless OFF (or throwback) gun he would have to attach a data tap to the hardwire between your commlink and your gun or attach his own cable inside the universal data connector of the gun.

I'd like to point you to the definition of the word proxy.  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proxy?s=t

The definition of a proxy is functionally identical to the definitions of Masters and Slaves in the book.  This is why my interpretation of how the Master/Slave relationship works in SR5 is the same as the idea of a proxy.

At your table you might or might not get the wireless bonus with your Connected house-rule in the first example (maybe if you slave the gun to your imaging device and have the imaging device have a cable to your commlink and your commlink have wireless ON or whatever) - but i can't see any reference that you get connected to the matrix by using a proxy in SR5. Not. a. single. one.

Here, I'll enable my smartass filter for you.  You.  Are.  Right.  There's.  Not.  A.  Single.  Reference.  That's annoying, I'm just going to talk to you like a human, rather than trying to be an ass.

Fact is, there's nothing that says explicitly one way or the other.  As I stated somewhere else in this thread, my interpretation (read: that's kind of like an opinion) is that the Master/Slave relationship works a lot like a proxy connection.  Sorry for that last aside, I just hate when people patronize me.

If you have a problem with my suggestion, then fine.  I NEVER stated that this was RAW.  This is simply an attempt to stop the bullshit from flying around in this thread any longer, and find a way to interpret the rules that makes sense with both the fluff and the science.

Also... IF you introduce this house rule THEN you will have to deal with stuff like how to handle a daisy chaining multiple devices with multiple cables (maybe a gun is connected to your goggles and your goggles connected to your commlink) and then having a top tier device (like a commlink) set to wireless ON. Also, if all devices are connected this way do you get access to all devices in the entire network when you attach to a single cable or do you still only get access to the two devices at either end of that specific cable...

Maybe you were so busy smelling your own shit that you didn't read the post I made earlier that said that Slaves can't be Masters.  This negates daisy chaining completely.  A Master can host (Device Rating) x3 Slaves.  Nowhere in the book does it state that Slaves can also be Masters, and for the sake of bookkeeping and other BS, it just makes sense that Slaves cannot also be Masters.

I am not saying your idea is good or bad.
I just can't find anything in core to support your claim.

What claim?  I am suggesting that we change some terminology in order to make things make sense.  You're picking a fight just to pick a fight.  And that's just stupid.  I'm trying to offer a solution, and you're trying to make MORE problems.