[Namikaze]

The entire breadth and depth of a character cannot be expressed solely through qualities and stats.  Characters have opinions and feelings that sometimes surprise even the players playing them.  Even without prejudice, it's very possible to have someone who wants to claim a TM's bounty without having to be as rabid as Clockwork.

[Michael Chandra]

Congrats, you killed a TM out of the blue just for cash or whatever, here is a point of Notoriety and the fixers don't want to set you up on jobs anymore because they know you're a danger to any team they painstakingly helped put together.

[Mithlas]

I think the most important thing that's been mentioned so far is the separation of player knowledge and character knowledge. Aztechnology is working on blood rituals, but they also have an excellent propaganda department and most people think it's fine to spend their money at Stuffer Shack (products guaranteed by Aztechnology^TM). Shadowrunners are aware of a good deal more of the gray and black shades of the world, but do not know everything that's going on. There's streaks of prejudice and ignorance among them as well even if they know they commit arson, murder, and jaywalking for a nuyen.

Pragmatism is a good point to keep in mind, but remember that short term pragmatism and long-term pragmatism are not the same thing, hence why TV Tropes has separate pages for the Magnificent Bastard and people who can change their plans on the fly, with some overlap. Some people want that job and reputation, some people may have been fooled by a world of false information. No two shadowrunners are going to be exactly on the same point in that spectrum.

[Kanly]

Geeking a fellow runner for no good reason will very possibly put an end to a career. And life. And I don't think most fixers and runners would see "I thought (s)he was a matrix-defiling abomination" as a good reason.

[Reaver]

In truth, probably not.

But since when have people ever fully considered the consequences of their actions?

[Kanly]

You are of course right, but I'd wager a runner would think twice before practically ending their career. There are non-lethal ways of dealing with team members in case of a dispute. You can beat them up out of anger then drop them at home or a street doc or a friend, take some of their pay (if they caused you damage and you are seeking restitution), you can even spread bad rumors (or truth) about them. But executing them and thus preventing their side of the story from being heard surely makes you look guilty.

So it would probably warrant Bad Rep, some Notoriety and possibly some contacts dropping in Loyalty. And I feel like that's something every runner would consider just as they would 'consider' not shooting themselves or detonating their own grenades in a melee.

I'm not trying to argue that there is no way a runner would ever do this nor that they really can be just plain stupid or irrational at times, or hell, most of the time. But again, I see this as such a grave action that surely it would make even the craziest character think twice. And if they really think they can live with the consequences, fine - they do have free will (that is to say, outright "banning" PvP killing etc would not be a good thing - black ops merc teams are always dangerous after all.

[Reaver]

Oh, there would be repercussions to their actions, that's for sure!

I'm just saying not everyone fully thinks out what those repercussions would or could be.... or they may just not care (as unbelievable as that sounds).

In short, all I am saying is that you can't rule out any type of action or behavior as people are generally WAY stupider they we could imagine! (Trust me. Everytime I think "That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen/heard" some one trumps it... usually within hours or minutes)

[Kanly]

Agreed!
If the players understand that what they're doing is stupid and extreme and/or sociopathic and they do think this is the way to go for their characters, then that's the end of it

[Lysanderz]

They're really a victim of bad press and the scapegoat of Crash 2.0."

Exactly. Scapegoat. Propaganda is king.

The example I pulled up? Deep cover Corporate Spy in the shadows. While he was more than willing to give our "Decker" access to his "Main Commlink", there was his corporate one that was just loaded with secrets nobody ever needed to know. For all he knew, the TM could access that commlink no matter what he had done to it (He was an Ares soldier, not a compute nerd). With his hoop on the line, and the risk of his secret getting out.... he shot him.

And what happened? The team immediately subdued him until he could convince us it was for the best. He was our face, and he calmly explained that anybody that kept secrets like that couldn't be on the up and up and put just enough doubt in the team to leave the TM bandaged, barely alive, and in the middle of Redmond in handcuffs.

To me it was perfectly acceptable. Not how I like things to go, but then again things don't always go how players want. My character agreed, a secret like that was an insult. The only reason Skim didn't vote to turn him in for a bounty or put a bullet in his head was the fact that the TM had saved his life once. But that was suddenly turned into "Did he save my life to continue to use me for information and contacts?"

It's a sketchy world out there. That being said, I'm also at a table where Character is king and player is drug along behind it.

[PiXeL01]

In terms of player killing I won't stand for it as a GM be cause it starts a vicious cycle of killings all along. A player should not be "punished" by his fellow players unless it's the premise of the game in my humble opinion. And I don't care if it's "incharacter" either. I have seen all too many groups and campaigns dissolve because of one player acting the bastard as in my experience, unless shut down immediately, it will escalate.

Of course each character should be played according to their demeanor but again some leverage towards other players should be allowed.

[Mithlas]

A player should not be "punished" by his fellow players unless it's the premise of the game in my humble opinion.

This button reduces everybody else's primary attribute by one when I push it?

What happens when I push it again?

[firebug]

The example I pulled up? Deep cover Corporate Spy in the shadows. While he was more than willing to give our "Decker" access to his "Main Commlink", there was his corporate one that was just loaded with secrets nobody ever needed to know. For all he knew, the TM could access that commlink no matter what he had done to it (He was an Ares soldier, not a compute nerd). With his hoop on the line, and the risk of his secret getting out.... he shot him.

But he thought his commlink was immune to "real" decker's attempts or something?  Had he ever witnessed what a hacker can do?  Get in the shadows for a week and you'll learn that the only way to keep a device from being hacked is to turn it off or have another hacker to protect it and hope they don't want it.  It sounds to me like he'd have just shot the TM for being a decker in the first place, since his sudden paranoia was based around what any given hacker could do to him.  The soldier excuse doesn't really follow either...  A soldier in SR not knowing how to protect his commlink (which would be vital to any soldier for communication and use of weapons technology) is like a modern-day soldier not knowing how to clean his gun.

That amount of instant logic-jumping paranoia sounds like a player excuse to shake up a team and create conflict.  In the least there's more than enough reasons for a player to err on the side of "not killing another PC".  Is it a little meta?  Sure.  But you're in control of your own character, and if you can't think up a reason to not try and kill your party members, you're doing it wrong.  It's no more meta than it is when you first make characters and everyone decides to try and pick a specialization and not take things like Prejudice (Radical, Elves) in a group that's half elves.

[Reaver]

Firebug;

I don't know if others have told you this or not, but your minty green text is hard to read.  The eye doesn't want to follow it....

[firebug]

Firebug;

I don't know if others have told you this or not, but your minty green text is hard to read.  The eye doesn't want to follow it....

Sorry.  One or two others have said it I think.  It looks more "dark evergreen" to me.  I just do it to have a bit of personality and so picked the color I associate with my SR character.

And to have something to contribute since I feel kinda bad not saying anything relevant...

I think it's fair to say there's really three parts of what's "known" in Shadowrun...  Like...  How do I phrase this.  Someone said earlier how there's a big difference about what actually the case and what the public sees.  I'd say the shadows are specifically in the middle of it.  So while normal wageslaves probably do think TMs are all terrorists who can hack an entire missile silo from a mile away and use it to nuke the world, I feel like the shadows (and thus, the PCs partly) have a bit more of a grounded knowledge of how things actually work.  They don't have answers, perse, but I bet they are better at filtering out the bullshit the corps and media feed people.  Less "knows what's up" and more "knows what it's not" since they're the ones doing the dirty work, working with and against the things the media reports about, etc.

[Reaver]

Firebug: thank you for changing the color back (MUCH easier to read now!)

*****

I would agree that runners should know more then the average wageslave... but that isn't always the case   its an assumption.

And to quote Samuel L Jackson: "you know what happens when you make an assumption?  You make an ass of you, umption!" (Long kiss goodbye)

Here is a recent real word example of what I mean:

I just got off the Kitimat modernization project. I was there as the PM for my company install instruments and 2 of my crew got seroiusly hurt, so I put in a call to the IBEW for 2 new workers to install and connect the devices. They sent me 2 guys, the first was an electrician for 15 years, the other was a 2nd year apprentice.  Since I was sure the apprentice had never done this type of work before, I concentrated my time explaining to the journeyman what to install, where they go, and how to connect the device...

Blank stare back. The 15 year journeyman had NO idea of the basics of installing an instrument!  Turned out the guy had spent the last 15 years installing cable tray and NOTHING else! (Tray is something a blind, retarded, one armed monkey can do! There is no skill needed..).

I kicked him to the curb the next day, bitched to the Hall and got someone with actual skill the next week. (The apprentice was great though)
●●●●

Just cause someone is a runner doesn't mean they are actually "in the know" about anything (AKA Plan 9 !)