[samoth]

...the art is by far the worst I've ever seen in a Shadowrun product.

I'm curious to know what about the art you didn't like.

Have you seen it?  The people who did this either used pictures of guns from the internet run through a photoshop filter, and/or have no idea what a gun looks like or how one is operated.  Most of the pictures flat out make zero sense even for "future tech".  I don't expect Rembrandt, but the majority of the pictures are just embarrassing. 

Take for example the Shiawase Monsoon and Rain.  Based on the design of the stock, you would need to hipfire to get any benefit from the sights.  The Cavalier Falchion looks like something a toddler would draw if asked to draw a picture of a rifle.  I don't think it's physically possible to fire the Rainforest Carbine unless you are a Dwarf based on the 3" stock and extremely small foregrip area.  Just awful, awful designs.

I don't want guns to be better. I want them to be alternatives, with upsides and downsides. I am very glad GH3 gave me that.

You're ok with paying real life money for a PDF of inferior products, I'm not.  There are plenty of bad guns in the SR5 core book to choose from.

[Michael Chandra]

You're ok with paying real life money for a PDF of inferior products, I'm not.  There are plenty of bad guns in the SR5 core book to choose from.

Like I already said, I consider them alternatives with both upsides and downsides, to a finer scale than what Core in itself offers. So from my point of view, they are not inferior or superior but simply nice alternatives that let me put a bit more thought into how big a punch I want, with what extra bonuses and what legality I prefer. And the amount of choice it gives me exceeds that of SR5 core alone, so I am quite pleased with it.

[martinchaen]

I liked the expanded Krime range. The majority of the rest held little interest for me personally, but I still think it was worth the cost of admission.

[Michael Chandra]

I do hope we get an errata soon, because I got an Adept who's already giving me guilty eyes for using that gun in Missions. ^_^

[JackVII]

I hope we get Run n Gun soon so I have a clue about what the different weapon mods in Gun H(e)aven 3 mean...

[PeterSmith]

Have you seen it?

I have, thank you.

Take for example the Shiawase Monsoon and Rain.  Based on the design of the stock, you would need to hipfire to get any benefit from the sights.

They do have an interesting design, that's for sure. However the Monsoon does come with a Smartlink, which means the ergonomics of the firearm can change without as much of an impact on its intended user. The Rain also has an extended stock, it appears that the shotgun is in its retracted state. I'm curious to see what the extended state is. If it's straight back, then I would agree with you. If it pops back and up, I might be inclined to lean towards the shotgun being fine for its intended audience: ignorant homeowners.

The Cavalier Falchion looks like something a toddler would draw if asked to draw a picture of a rifle.

The Falchion is a rather basic looking weapon, one that matches up with the standard upgrades listed for it. I for one would not want to see a lot of doo-dads hanging off of a rifle intended to be used as a club if need be, that's just something else to break off.

I don't think it's physically possible to fire the Rainforest Carbine unless you are a Dwarf based on the 3" stock and extremely small foregrip area.

I don't see anything in the book listing the size of the Rain Forest Carbine, I'm not sure where you're coming up with that stock length. Please note this is another firearm that features a retractable stock, we don't know if the stock is in the extended or retracted state. That being said, I do have a slight issue with the artwork: I would bring the trigger down slightly, so that it is below the lower rail of the stock rather than halfway through. However that's a minor quibble.

A question for you: when you looked at the artwork did you also look at their upgrades? Or did you simply look at the art? From your listed examples I would think that you simply looked at the art independant of the game stats.

You're ok with paying real life money for a PDF of inferior products, I'm not.  There are plenty of bad guns in the SR5 core book to choose from.

Power creep is dangerously easy in crunch books. Something that Jason needs to have a good handle on not only with the core books coming out but for future books down the line. If a book like Gun H(e)aven 3 simply one-ups the core book then SR5 runs the risk of turning into Rifts. If I want to play Rifts, I'll play Rifts. I like that SR5 balances the weapons out in order to give me a good variety of a few basic concepts rather than just giving me a few optimal choices and a bunch of GM weapons.

[samoth]

A question for you: when you looked at the artwork did you also look at their upgrades? Or did you simply look at the art? From your listed examples I would think that you simply looked at the art independant of the game stats.

Power creep is dangerously easy in crunch books. Something that Jason needs to have a good handle on not only with the core books coming out but for future books down the line. If a book like Gun H(e)aven 3 simply one-ups the core book then SR5 runs the risk of turning into Rifts. If I want to play Rifts, I'll play Rifts. I like that SR5 balances the weapons out in order to give me a good variety of a few basic concepts rather than just giving me a few optimal choices and a bunch of GM weapons.

Of course I looked at the attachments when considering the gun artwork.  The URFC's "Retractable" stock is clearly either a side folder or rigid stock, but I'll let that slide as a technicality, for example.

Like I said, I don't need artwork that we could hang in a museum, just something that isn't insulting to my dollar.

As for power creep, the URFC throws the entire game out of balance but that has been covered already.  Most of the other guns in this supplement are some degree of worse than the base guns in the SR5 book, so I struggle to understand why they are released at all aside from being a cash grab by Catalyst.  When the people in the shadowtalk say the guns are crappy, why should I care about adding them to my game?

[Namikaze]

Like I said, I don't need artwork that we could hang in a museum, just something that isn't insulting to my dollar.

Alright, I've been holding my tongue for the last several posts that you've made, samoth, but this is getting absurd.

1) If you think you can do better artwork, then by all means apply for a job at CGL
2) Your dollar isn't more valuable than anyone else's, and your opinion isn't any more right.  Repeating your opinion isn't going to change anything and it's just trying to drag people into a fight
3) Don't feed the trolls

[samoth]

Everyone can have their opinion except me, got it.

[PeterSmith]

Of course I looked at the attachments when considering the gun artwork.  The URFC's "Retractable" stock is clearly either a side folder or rigid stock, but I'll let that slide as a technicality, for example.

Yeah, I can see that. The carbon fiber looking section where the two rails join the body, that could be hinged away from the viewer. I'm still curious where you came up with the three inches, though.

As for power creep, the URFC throws the entire game out of balance but that has been covered already.

I think (hope) we'll get an errata out for the book soon, that the two stat blocks for each weapon will be brought inline with each other.

Most of the other guns in this supplement are some degree of worse than the base guns in the SR5 book, so I struggle to understand why they are released at all aside from being a cash grab by Catalyst.  When the people in the shadowtalk say the guns are crappy, why should I care about adding them to my game?

Are you the player, or are you the GM? If you're the GM, having a variety of weapons gives you more options for your players. Running around in the NAN, CAS, or maybe in the Amazon? Might not have the newest and best around, the locals are having to make do with what they can. Crit glitch with a full mag of EX-E and you need to replace it "RIGHT NOW!!!"? Maybe your fixer can get you one of the guns in GH3 fastest.

[Namikaze]

Everyone can have their opinion except me, got it.

Everyone has their opinion.  You're the only one constantly repeating it as if it can change people's minds.  State your opinion and move on, that's all that I meant.

[PeterSmith]

Everyone has their opinion.  You're the only one constantly repeating it as if it can change people's minds.  State your opinion and move on, that's all that I meant.

It's tough for him to do that if he's having a conversation with me. And while his choice of words in the case of the Falchion are not what I would have gone with, it's still a conversation I feel like having. If you'd like to contribute, please do so. But don't jump on a guy because you don't agree with him. That doesn't contribute to things.

[samoth]

The art is trivial anyway since you're free to imagine the guns looking any way you want so it's just a gripe of mine.  None of the old gun splat books were really any better (i think the SSC had actual graph paper lines from the pencil drawings).  I suppose what bugs me most is the lack of attention to detail and releasing a bunch of same-y guns that bring nothing to the table other than a different line of stats.

[Csjarrat]

I don't want guns to be better. I want them to be alternatives, with upsides and downsides. I am very glad GH3 gave me that.

Exactly.  These guns have to fit into the world with all the other guns.  They have to be alternatives, or no one would ever use the SR5 core guns.  I think Gun H(e)aven 3 does this very well.

It also expands nicely the choices of weapons for longarms users and expands nicely on underloved classes like machine pistols, holdouts and light pistols. Sure there are a few crappy ones in there, but plenty of gangers/homeowners/criminal outfits/paramilitaries aren't going to have assault cannons at their disposals. its a good tool for GM's and players alike, aside from a few editing issues. I've no doubt it'll be even better when the weapon mods come out too, hopefully giving you options to compensate for some of the con's or boost the pro's of the new weapons for PC use.

[JackVII]

It also expands nicely the choices of weapons for longarms users and expands nicely on underloved classes like machine pistols, holdouts and light pistols. Sure there are a few crappy ones in there, but plenty of gangers/homeowners/criminal outfits/paramilitaries aren't going to have assault cannons at their disposals. its a good tool for GM's and players alike, aside from a few editing issues. I've no doubt it'll be even better when the weapon mods come out too, hopefully giving you options to compensate for some of the con's or boost the pro's of the new weapons for PC use.

Agreed. While I think it's a little bit questionable to release a book that requires a not-yet-released book to fully understand the pros and cons of the gear contained within, I think some of these weapons may be a bit more viable once we have a full understanding of what the various currently undfined mods/accessories do.