[RHat]

There's nothing applicable to the task of point defense as seen on CIWS - the closest thing would basically be suppressing fire in the area.

The Targeting Autosoft is made to make general combative use of the weapon; this would be outside of its parameters.  And I'll just state again:  You seriously overestimate how feasible this would be, and how related to the CIWS concept it is.

[Reaver]

trying to hit something less then a half inch across, by half inch long traveling at 200+m/s with another 0.5x0.5 inch projectile.....





I think mythbusters covered this one once....

[Critter]

I think mythbusters covered this one once....

Is Mythbusters RAW or RAI?

[MajorTwitch]

So still exploring the concept of sprite control. The biological pan is a construct of the brain, but to the two are not directly connected. If hacking the biological pan you are only interacting with the root of the technomancers ability. Bio wires are run with complex forms so would that mean that the bio wire is linked to biological pan? And if it treated like cyberware skillwire otherwise, would it be a device that is slaved to the biological pan and therefore accessible to a sprite.

So I am still not sure why you think that a clearsight and a targeting autosoft  would not do the job. They do not pose any limits of what can be perceived and targeting allows it to use the weapon. Use of weapon should include the ability to calculate target trajectory and use given weapon to hit target. I do not remember seeing: if target is size micro and moving fast you need more stuff to shoot at it. There could be combat rules that explain that I missed.

Now there is the missile defense system on 139 of arsenal. Has a firmware package to shoot missiles. Could a technomancer thread that? Not within the rules to have that as an autosoft? There rules for creating non book given software or programs?

Could bullets be easier to hit then missiles? I realize they have far less mass to hit but they also may move up seven times slower then a missile. Missiles can also change course, bullets may only deviate slight from their trajectory. Very predictable, I guess most point defense systems would not brother trying stop bullets because things they are mounted are not going to effected by them.

I just want you, RHat to know, I deeply appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and work through the concepts. It is not that I  am overestimating the possibility of this, it is more about the creative challenge.

[RHat]

Skillwires, and thus biowire, would still be insufficient for this trick.  And you can't give a sprite activesofts anyways.  A sprite cannot control a person; it is simply not possible.  Technically, as it follows all basic rules for skillwires it doesn't explicitly alter, you could get a Machine Sprite to run Diagnostics and Stability in there, but that's all it could do there.  It's possible you might be able to use the skillsoft of a Tutor sprite, but then you're limited to Technical and Vehicle skills.

In any case, missile defense is not even close to the same thing.  Missiles, in this context, are inarguably an easier target - detected from a much, much greater range or at the very least with more time (due to acceleration; even if it is a supersonic missile it isn't leaving the launcher at that speed), and as you'll note even in Shadowrun the task can only be attempted with a laser or a fully automatic weapon.  It's still doing the same thing as modern CIWS systems are, at least when using bullets - you fill the projected path with as much lead as you possibly can, and just hope the missile happens to hit a few bullets.

The other thing about that missile defense system is that it's not just a matter of firmware - it also requires the extra large sensor array that can only be gained with the Improved Sensor Array mod, which means you're dealing with a sensor array notably larger than what the typical vehicle carries, and that's just to manage this with missiles; I'll repeat, that's a much easier task.

[Reaver]

Could bullets be easier to hit then missiles? I realize they have far less mass to hit but they also may move up seven times slower then a missile.

A round fired from a 44 magnum handgun travels at 391m/s OR 1407.6km/hr  for the LIGHTEST load... or 460m/s (1656 km/hr)

A round fired from an M4 (5.56x45mm NATO) travels at 936m/s OR 3369.6 Km/hr

Now the average speed of a air to ship missile (since we are talking about CiWS systems) has a speed of 735km/hr all the way to 3000+Km/hr



The width of a .44 magnum round (the "fattest" round here and a good example of a heavy pistol round) is .43 inches the 4.46x45mm is less then half that.

The Width of the average anti-ship missile is .5 meters (1ft 7.5 in) to 1.4 meters (4ft 3.3 in) (for the fastest missile on record)


Speeds are similar.

Size different is MASSIVE. (and we haven't even talked about length),


Nor the fact that a CiWS takes up to 8 seconds to achieve lock on for a firing solution, which means the missile has to be deployed at ranges of  3km (for the slowest adjusted for safety margin.) to 10km (for the fastest, adjusted for safety margin)



In a gun fight in a urban setting, most engagements happen at ranges of 200 meters or less.... which means for more weapons, you are hit before you know you are under fire. Especially considering that the speed of sound is 343.2 m/s, means that the bullet has hit it's target before the rapport of the shot gets to the target.


There is no way to react in time to shoot a bullet with an other bullet in that time frame. when you look at the time needed to receive stimulus from the optic nerve to the brain, then the brain to process the danger, then sand a signal to the muscles, you are around .3 seconds (Providing of course you can see a 1.03cm object travelling faster then the speed of sound. AND, we have not even taken into consideration the time needed for your cyberware implanted computer (or threaded form) to process the speed and trajectory, compensated for gravity, AND factoring in your own weapon's trafectory, speed and compensating for gravity..... which, it you where lucky would be .1 to .4 seconds.


So now, you are looking at a response time of .4. to .7 of a second, and you are not even guaranteed to hit the target. meanwhile that bullet has traveled to you approximately 170.2m (If you react in .4 seconds) to 297.85m (if you react at .7 seconds) And that is for the 44magnum, using an averaged speed

If it was the assault rifle, in .4 seconds the bullet would have travelled 374.4m OR 655.2m if you reacted in .7 seconds.


Again, given that urban engagement happen at 200 meters or less... you hit with assault rifle everytime... and hit with the heavy pistol IF you are less then 171 meters from the shooter.


As said, physically it can not be done. And as Rhat points out, there is no cyber/bio or thread that allows you to either.

Not to mention that by RAW/RAI there is no mechanic for it either.

[Novocrane]

There is no way to react in time to shoot a bullet with an other bullet in that time frame

Which is why I suggested not doing it in that manner.

[MajorTwitch]

Have you not read the rest of the thread Reaver? At this point it is more of question if a sprite rigged into something could do it. Also you talking know it is coming: *With modified Radar Sensor (didn't see why you couldn't modify cyberware) boosting the signal to 4, so 1km field of data collection. That can see through walls, 360 degrees and detect things as slight as breathing. Those radio waves move at the speed of light, it just comes down to processing the data. Which I would like to think a rating 10+ sprite could do in under 0.1 of a second. With three Initiative Passes a simple action is around 0.5 seconds. So with slower rounds it is possibility if I understood your findings.

You say claim that RAW/RAI does not support this. But I yet to understand why. No where I have seen if the target is moving super fast you are no longer able to shoot it. You +3 dice (body size) to hitting a jet moving at 667m/s. So why can I not take -6 dice for bullet size and shoot? Or some place where they say shooting bullet with bullets is impossible. They did not say you could and they did not say you could not either.

Other musings... They never listed armor or body for a bullet. Shooting is not normally part of a defensive action so this could not used as interrupt action. However, if you had the higher initiative you delay action to shoot it?

[Reaver]

aside from the fact that a bullet is too small to be picked up on radar?

IF the bullet could be picked up on radar, it would also pick up anything the size of a large housefly and bigger, which would totally scramble your radar anyways and give you dozens to hundreds of false positive signals.

As it stands, radar only picks up objects of 1 meter or greater, so they still get false positives off of large birds.....


Also, at a range of 1 km, it would be possible in theory..... but then you are talking about an even larger projectile (a pistol or assault rifle round, while in theory can travel this distance, it's accuracy would be so low, it would have to be aimed at a large target... like a vehicle. Which are already pretty immune to small arms fire... At personal target by RAW would be a -6 + dice pool modification.)


so again, at 1km,  for a missile sure, but a solid slug projectile? with such mass and velocity coupled with a VERY small cross section? nope. But you have improved your reaction time to about  1 to 1.4 seconds....

[RHat]

And note that the missile defense option itself requires for more than that for sensor ability.