[Michael Chandra]

Nostalgia.

[martinchaen]

To be fair, I think some of you are overdramatizing how "crippling" some of the other 25 point negative qualities are.

Take a Burnout level addiction to Zen. OK, so you pay 5 nuyen a day for a dose of zen, and you roleplay an escapist character who for 10x1d6 minutes every day are easily absorbed by detail and obsessive about certain facts or problems.

Or the 25 point Allergy quality. Sure, the -6 dice pool modifier is bad, and 1 box of unresisted Physical damage every 30 seconds is potentially lethal, but that's where planning and (hopefully) good team mates come in; considering your character will be in rather obvious excruciating pain if exposed to the allergen, I'd figure that this is something he'd probably plan for...

To my mind, the 15 point Insomnia quality is far more crippling; Threshold 4 WIL + INT test to get any rest at all to regain Stun Damage? Even with 12 dice, you'll fail roughly half the time and for any of the Magical disciplines this could be potentially devastating.

Then you've got the innocuous Incompetent (not too bad, but again in the wrong place at the wrong time, potentially lethal), Uncouth, and Uneducated qualities; these all affect game stats more than any of the 25 point ones.

To my mind, Corporate SIN is just fine as written. Just as with a Severe Common allergy, you have to take steps far beyond that of other, non-Corporate SIN runners. Does that mean the game has to be bogged down by insane planning sessions? Hell no. Take Disguise, make it a modus operandi to always use it every morning, for instance. Wear helmets, gloves, full body suits at all times to minimize the risk of leaving trace evidence.

Or, as in the case of my character, move to Chicago and settle down in the CZ. Hey Ares, you want to come get me? Bring it...

[ZeConster]

I see a lot of people talking about things like "the corp is hunting you", but that simply doesn't fit the rulebook's description. If the corp were hunting you, there wouldn't be a 10% income tax to the corp. Corporate Born SINners aren't all that afraid of their corp, they're afraid of everyone else.

[Crunch]

Yeah, I don't buy the corp hunting you under Corporate SIN. But I do think that the Corp is interested enough in you to pay attention, which can be problematic in itself.

[Mirikon]

Having a Corporate SIN doesn't mean the corp is hunting you. It does, however, mean that there's a record of your existence out there that is harder to escape when you cross jurisdictions. This means you have to be extra careful about leaving evidence behind, and you really ought to think three or four times before taking runs against mother corp. But how much do you really think NeoNET will care if one of their drones' family members decides to go moonlighting on runs against Saeder-Krupp? Cover your tracks, don't draw too much heat, and never run against the corp you were born into, and you'll be fine.

[martinchaen]

^^ Fourth'ded... I'm with ZeConster, Crunch, and Mirikon on this one.

Just because you have a Corp SIN doesn't mean the corp has an outstanding bounty on you, at least not according to the text as written.

Given how many people conceivably work for Ares, or S-K, or any other mega, it'd be a logistical nightmare of epic proportions just to keep track of each and every Corp SINer who went AWOL, never mind trying to bring them all back in the fold.

I also find it completely believable that a Corp SINer could be an actual undercover agent for his parent corp, in which case keeping this fact from his compatriots would be even more relevant.

In any case, having to taking reasonable steps to hide ones identity to avoid being shunned, hurt, or worse by ones fellow runners, paying 10% of all income (either back to the corp or as a money laundering "fee", if you will), and having to role play one of the privileged few who grew up with a corp SIN (and who is very likely more than a little brainwashed as a result) and either chose to or had to leave the corp seems fair for the karma cost compared to some of the other negative qualities, at least in my view.

The very real challenge comes in the form of role playing a desire to not run against your parent corp without giving away your secret. How do you explain to your team mates that you don't feel like doing this run because it is against your corp? What happens if you do the run; can you alleviate your conscience by nabbing the pay data and giving it back to the corp with a "this is no longer a secret" flag? Would you write one act off against secretly funneling other info to the parent corp on a regular basis? How do you play a reticence to act against a certain party that is hardly innocent in any way, shape, or form.

As an example, the background for my SRM character is one of a human male in his mid-30s who grew up an Ares SINer in Seattle, joined the UCAS Army and served for about a decade, and who returned to Seattle after receiving an honorable discharge despite rumours of drug use as his Corp SINer parents pulled some strings. Disgruntled with civilians complaining about (in his opinion) trivial matters, he relocated to Chicago when a former team mate set him up with a security contract and he's spent the past five years there, effectively living off the grid (as many real world veterans did and still do when returning from active duty).

While I haven't currently because of SRM potentially being GMed by different people, in a home game I would easily have taken the Prejudice negative quality against the common group Civilians (i.e. all non-military) as a bias, and the mild Cram addiction to further build up the character background with qualities.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

^^ Fourth'ded... I'm with ZeConster, Crunch, and Mirikon on this one.

Just because you have a Corp SIN doesn't mean the corp has an outstanding bounty on you, at least not according to the text as written.

So then, is there any alternate suggestion for a corp runaway holding a Corp SIN drawback other than downgrading it to a 10 point drawback (and treating it mechanically like Criminal SIN)?

I think we're all on the same boat for the Corp SIN drawback for characters that are still in the employ and/or in regular contact with the Corp.

To be fair, I think some of you are overdramatizing how "crippling" some of the other 25 point negative qualities are.

Take a Burnout level addiction to Zen. OK, so you pay 5 nuyen a day for a dose of zen, and you roleplay an escapist character who for 10x1d6 minutes every day are easily absorbed by detail and obsessive about certain facts or problems.

Or the 25 point Allergy quality. Sure, the -6 dice pool modifier is bad, and 1 box of unresisted Physical damage every 30 seconds is potentially lethal, but that's where planning and (hopefully) good team mates come in; considering your character will be in rather obvious excruciating pain if exposed to the allergen, I'd figure that this is something he'd probably plan for...

I disagree completely.  A player can avoid the negative effects of those 25 point drawbacks, but only by limiting his PCs options.  "Sorry, I can't get out of the van during our daylight op.." or somesuch.   A runaway taking care to avoid being found is simply doing what runners already do.. he's not actually paying for the drawback by being cautious.

[martinchaen]

Nope. I say treat it like it's written. That's what I'd do... Whether or not the SINer is a runaway or not, he'll still have to look over his shoulder, he'll still be taxed 10%, and he'll still have to role play his choice by taking precautions. To me, that's more than enough as not all negative qualities translate directly into game mechanics only, but are easily just as important for role playing purposes.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Nope. I say treat it like it's written. That's what I'd do... Whether or not the SINer is a runaway or not, he'll still have to look over his shoulder, he'll still be taxed 10%, and he'll still have to role play his choice by taking precautions. To me, that's more than enough as not all negative qualities translate directly into game mechanics only, but are easily just as important for role playing purposes.

Here's another thought.. getting off the runaway background.

For those PCs that are 'conventional' Corp SINners, would you flip the tax rates for the 15 and 25 point drawbacks?  Yes, fluffwise, in this megacorporate world the rich pay a lower proportion of their income.  Yet the quality mentions nothing about being 'rich'. 

Why should a 15 point drawback have a more severe tax than the 25 point drawback?

[Crunch]

Because, in universe and ignoring the karma costs, part of a corporate limited SIN is about paying for the privilege of corporate protection.

[All4BigGuns]

The horrid way the SIN qualities were handled is why having a SIN should just be the player saying they have one and are a legal citizen (one thing that was pretty much the case in older editions). Either that, or there should be Positive versions (which should be rather cheap). A player shouldn't have to get their character royally boned to be an actual citizen.

[martinchaen]

That's one opinion, All4BigGuns, and you're more than welcome to run it as such.

Doesn't change the fact that the rules are fairly clear on the SIN quality; take it or leave it, as with everything else.

@Stainless Steel Devil Rat Nope, I wouldn't flip the rates. Look at the US today. Who pays more tax, the rich or the poor?

While Corp SIN runners are not necessarily rich they are considered privileged by the rules in the book, unlike those who merely gained admittance to a corp later on in life (limited Corp SIN).

[All4BigGuns]

Never said they weren't clear.

They DO however need to change and change drastically.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

That's one opinion, All4BigGuns, and you're more than welcome to run it as such.

Doesn't change the fact that the rules are fairly clear on the SIN quality; take it or leave it, as with everything else.

@Stainless Steel Devil Rat Nope, I wouldn't flip the rates. Look at the US today. Who pays more tax, the rich or the poor?

While Corp SIN runners are not necessarily rich they are considered privileged by the rules in the book, unlike those who merely gained admittance to a corp later on in life (limited Corp SIN).

I was meaning fluff-aside, game mechanics wise.

How else would you penalize, in-game-play, a PC with the 25 point Corp SIN disadvantage differently than another PC with the 15 point Corp-Limited SIN disadvantage?  Especially considering the one with the less steep disadvantage has the mechanical penalty of paying higher taxes.   The Contacts and friends are somehow "more" upset, if/when they ever find out the true Identity?  They're "more" likely to find out in the first place?

[Crunch]

A corporate limited SIN doesn't imply the same level of connection to the Corp that a full on Corporate SIN does.

So playing by the book people are suspicious of someone with a limited SIN and hostile towards a full corporate SIN.